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My first ejection


agdz59
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Hi all,

First off - So glad I found this site!

Last month was my first travel ball tournament at the local municipal fields after a couple of years of LL.  From that tournament I asked a question here about unruly fans.

Last weekend was another tourney at the same venue and the last game of the weekend is with this same team.  They were home team and I was behind the plate this time.  The visitors were a team from the same city that I just had a game with and there were no problems in that game at all.  In fact, I am familiar with two of their assistant coaches who were coaches of a LL team I umped for several times this season.

These are 10Us and the rule around here is give them an extra ball into the other box for a wide strike.  It was my 3rd game behind the plate that hot day and calling that strike was not a problem until this game.

The first strike I call out there gets an "OH MY GOD!" from the visitors dugout.  The home pitcher keeps working that pitch but misses as much as he gets.  Every 'ball!' gets a grumble from the home team but I can ignore it. 

Bottom of the first and the first strike I call there gets an "I CAN'T BELIEVE IT! I'M WITH THE OTHER TEAM AND I CAN SEE THAT'S BAD BLUE!".  No problem, I can ignore that.  But this starts the VT pitcher getting demonstrative about ball calls.

Top of the second and now the home team pitcher is acting out on balls called on the outside.  Every miss gets a look in to the coaches, a walk around the mound with shaking his head or a stomp of the foot, etc. The crowd picks it up and I'm hearing a constant stream of stuff but nothing personal.

Bottom of the second, and more of the same but more vocal from the visitors bench.  Players in the dugout mimicing their coach's "Where's that?", "OMG!", etc.  I'm getting tired of pitchers delaying the game and demonstrating so I call time, approach the visiting bench and tell them I've had enough and this is there warning.  Control their players and their fans.  I look at the home coach in the 3rd base coach's box and tell him the warning goes for his team as well.

In the top of the third the home team quiets down but there is one pitch where the pitcher motions the catcher to the outside box leaving me exposed in the slot.  He then throws a high inside fastball headed straight for me.  If the catcher hadn't reacted and tipped the ball away, I would have stopped the game right there.   As it was I stared in at the home coach for a while and played on.

In  the bottom of the third the visiting pitcher is demonstrating.  The coach switches him for another and I hear "It's OK, he's against us" as he's bringing in the new pitcher.  New pitcher starts demonstrating on balls right away egged on by the crowd.  I start called "BALL!" loudly when ever they miss.  Finally the 3rd base coach says "Jesus Christ, give us the same pitches!".   That's when I call time and toss that coach. 

First ejection after maybe 3 years and 50-60 games.  The rest of the game goes quietly.  Ironic that the team that gave me sh*t the last tourney and started the crap this game, got the other team involved and it was them that got ejected.  So it goes.

 

 

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"These are 10Us and the rule around here is give them an extra ball into the other box for a wide strike.  It was my 3rd game behind the plate that hot day and calling that strike was not a problem until this game."

 

What rule is that? What does heat have to do with it. I think if you leave that paragraph out your OP will come across better. But I might just be giving you some sht since being new to this site you had an opinion about how to adjudicate an OBR walk off HBP or walk.

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43 minutes ago, agdz59 said:

Hi all,

First off - So glad I found this site!

Last month was my first travel ball tournament at the local municipal fields after a couple of years of LL.  From that tournament I asked a question here about unruly fans.

Last weekend was another tourney at the same venue and the last game of the weekend is with this same team.  They were home team and I was behind the plate this time.  The visitors were a team from the same city that I just had a game with and there were no problems in that game at all.  In fact, I am familiar with two of their assistant coaches who were coaches of a LL team I umped for several times this season.

These are 10Us and the rule around here is give them an extra ball into the other box for a wide strike.  It was my 3rd game behind the plate that hot day and calling that strike was not a problem until this game.

That's the "rule" around there?  I get that at the 10U level you need to have a large zone, but having a stated rule and to have it go all the way into the other batter's box?

The first strike I call out there gets an "OH MY GOD!" from the visitors dugout.  The home pitcher keeps working that pitch but misses as much as he gets.  Every 'ball!' gets a grumble from the home team but I can ignore it. 

I could ignore the first comment, but if they are grumbling about every ball, it's time to address it.  On the second one, with your mask on, tell them you heard them.  On the next one, take the mask off and give them an official warning.  "Coach, this is your warning for arguing balls and strikes.  If you continue to argue, you will leave me no choice but to eject you from the game."

Bottom of the first and the first strike I call there gets an "I CAN'T BELIEVE IT! I'M WITH THE OTHER TEAM AND I CAN SEE THAT'S BAD BLUE!".  No problem, I can ignore that.  But this starts the VT pitcher getting demonstrative about ball calls.

No.  HELL NO.  If it's the team you already warned, then he's ejected.  If it's the other team, see above about issuing an official warning.

Top of the second and now the home team pitcher is acting out on balls called on the outside.  Every miss gets a look in to the coaches, a walk around the mound with shaking his head or a stomp of the foot, etc. The crowd picks it up and I'm hearing a constant stream of stuff but nothing personal.

"Coach, you need to take care of this or I will."

Bottom of the second, and more of the same but more vocal from the visitors bench.  Players in the dugout mimicing their coach's "Where's that?", "OMG!", etc.  I'm getting tired of pitchers delaying the game and demonstrating so I call time, approach the visiting bench and tell them I've had enough and this is there warning.  Control their players and their fans.  I look at the home coach in the 3rd base coach's box and tell him the warning goes for his team as well.

DO NOT APPROACH THEIR DUGOUT.  It makes you look like the aggressor.  The dirt circle is your office.  Conduct your business there.

In the top of the third the home team quiets down but there is one pitch where the pitcher motions the catcher to the outside box leaving me exposed in the slot.  He then throws a high inside fastball headed straight for me.  If the catcher hadn't reacted and tipped the ball away, I would have stopped the game right there.   As it was I stared in at the home coach for a while and played on.

If you feel it was intentional, then you have to dump the little SH*# right there.  If you have any evidence the coach put him up to it (such as this happening after a conference), then dump him too.

In  the bottom of the third the visiting pitcher is demonstrating.  The coach switches him for another and I hear "It's OK, he's against us" as he's bringing in the new pitcher.  New pitcher starts demonstrating on balls right away egged on by the crowd.  I start called "BALL!" loudly when ever they miss.  Finally the 3rd base coach says "Jesus Christ, give us the same pitches!".   That's when I call time and toss that coach. 

No chance he stays in the game after this comment.  He's accusing you of cheating.  Of course, the 3rd base coach had to go on that comment.

First ejection after maybe 3 years and 50-60 games.  The rest of the game goes quietly.  Ironic that the team that gave me sh*t the last tourney and started the crap this game, got the other team involved and it was them that got ejected.  So it goes.

Which is how it probably would have gone if you had dealt with it properly in the first inning.  You're new and game management is the most difficult thing to learn because it takes experience.  Remember that what you permit, you promote.  You permitted A LOT of bad behavior before finally addressing it.  There is no reason to take that kind of abuse for that long, so deal with it as early as possible and demonstrate to them that they cannot get away with treating you that way.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

These are 10Us and the rule around here is give them an extra ball into the other box for a wide strike.  It was my 3rd game behind the plate that hot day and calling that strike was not a problem until this game.

That's the "rule" around there?  I get that at the 10U level you need to have a large zone, but having a stated rule and to have it go all the way into the other batter's box?

Grayhawk - thank you, that's the kind of feedback I'm looking for.  I left the wrong impression above.  There is no stated rule, just a rule of thumb among the other umpires as they were helping me out both this tournament and the one before.  I noticed that not calling those strikes got looks in other games and calling them strikes never got a peep - until this last game when all hell broke loose.  Had me scratching my head.

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20 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

"These are 10Us and the rule around here is give them an extra ball into the other box for a wide strike.  It was my 3rd game behind the plate that hot day and calling that strike was not a problem until this game."

 

What rule is that? What does heat have to do with it. I think if you leave that paragraph out your OP will come across better. But I might just be giving you some sht since being new to this site you had an opinion about how to adjudicate an OBR walk off HBP or walk.

Again, sorry I gave the wrong impression.  Have no idea what you're talking about on the 'adjudication'. My story about minors LL 5 run rule?  I wasn't trying to adjudicate anything. Just sharing.  If I broke some etiquette  I apologize. If I'm supposed to STFU, I don't get it.

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50 minutes ago, agdz59 said:

Again, sorry I gave the wrong impression.  Have no idea what you're talking about on the 'adjudication'. My story about minors LL 5 run rule?  I wasn't trying to adjudicate anything. Just sharing.  If I broke some etiquette  I apologize. If I'm supposed to STFU, I don't get it.

I think I was mistaken about what you were saying in the other thread. We do have etiquette on this site and you haven’t broken it. Who might have broken it is @Steven Tyler  check his post out.

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1 hour ago, agdz59 said:

Grayhawk - thank you, that's the kind of feedback I'm looking for.  I left the wrong impression above.  There is no stated rule, just a rule of thumb among the other umpires as they were helping me out both this tournament and the one before.  I noticed that not calling those strikes got looks in other games and calling them strikes never got a peep - until this last game when all hell broke loose.  Had me scratching my head.

agdz59, welcome!

This is a discussion that will go on forever ... the definition of a strike is clearly defined.  The perception of one is dubious.  But at what point does an official take matters into his or her own hands and what are the repercussions?

Yes, expanding the zone made your life easier and got you out of that hell-game ... but now the coach and the pitcher are going to expect future umpires to accommodate their lack of talent.  Then, when I don’t give that good 10u pitcher the shoulders because she doesn’t need it, I will suffer the consequences and end up with ejections on my hands,

Personally, I would never let anyone, even other officials, tell me where my strike zone should be (beyond where it should actually be!).  The guidance may be helpful and appreciated, but it is just that: guidance.  Can you imagine if you had actually said to one of those coaches “Around these parts, the strike zone is a ball’s width into the other batter’s box.”  Eek!

 

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2 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

 Can you imagine if you had actually said to one of those coaches “Around these parts, the strike zone is a ball’s width into the other batter’s box.”  Eek!

 

Thanks for the insights TMIB.  Here's the thing about your question - these teams are at these tournaments nearly every month.  I've noticed they EXPECT that outside strike just like the other umps were telling me.  I came in calling the chalk but I expanded it out over the 9 games behind the plate. 

That's what mystified me about the immediate BS I was getting.  Is it too tin foil to think I was being hazed?  Two team in the final game in the losers bracket blowing off steam on the newbie? I don't know.

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6 hours ago, agdz59 said:

The first strike I call out there gets an "OH MY GOD!" from the visitors dugout.  The home pitcher keeps working that pitch but misses as much as he gets.  Every 'ball!' gets a grumble from the home team but I can ignore it. 

Coach, violent disapproval of my calls will not be tolerated. We’re not arguing balls and strikes. 

Bottom of the first and the first strike I call there gets an "I CAN'T BELIEVE IT! I'M WITH THE OTHER TEAM AND I CAN SEE THAT'S BAD BLUE!".  Gone. F**k that crybaby. 

Top of the second and now the home team pitcher is acting out on balls called on the outside.  Every miss gets a look in to the coaches, a walk around the mound with shaking his head or a stomp of the foot, etc. The crowd picks it up and I'm hearing a constant stream of stuff but nothing personal.

Coach, control your crowd or you’re done.

Bottom of the second, and more of the same but more vocal from the visitors bench.  Players in the dugout mimicing their coach's "Where's that?", "OMG!",

Coach? Gone. Maybe a player too just to prove my point. 

In the top of the third the home team quiets down but there is one pitch where the pitcher motions the catcher to the outside box leaving me exposed in the slot.  He then throws a high inside fastball headed straight for me. Timeout. Pitcher? Gone. Maybe the coach too.

In the bottom of the third the visiting pitcher is demonstrating.  The coach switches him for another and I hear "It's OK, he's against us" as he's bringing in the new pitcher. Hey coach? Gone. 

You took way too much. 

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We all know how the strike zone is defined, but in practice, umpires often have tendencies--the outside corner, the low pitch, the letters. The reality is that not everyone has the same, textbook strike zone. But rule of thumb or not, the important thing is to establish your strike zone and be consistent. Especially because these teams come back to this tournament every month, they will--or should--know what to expect from you, and then it's on them to swing the bat.

grayhawk's post is sage advice.

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7 hours ago, agdz59 said:

Thanks for the insights TMIB.  Here's the thing about your question - these teams are at these tournaments nearly every month.  I've noticed they EXPECT that outside strike just like the other umps were telling me.  I came in calling the chalk but I expanded it out over the 9 games behind the plate. 

That's what mystified me about the immediate BS I was getting.  Is it too tin foil to think I was being hazed?  Two team in the final game in the losers bracket blowing off steam on the newbie? I don't know.

 

I like LRZ’s comment, but I am a bit more cynical.  I don’t think they ever learn what to expect ... they just expect everything to go their way.  That means they expect you to call nose to toes and half of each batter’s box for their pitcher but expect the ball to be completely over the plate and entirely above the knees and entirely below the rib cage for their hitters.

Honestly, as sportsmanship has gotten worse over the years, so has game IQ and expectations in general.  It seemed like back in my day we did learn and adjust to umpires.  But then I didn’t play in the era of burning through five or six tournament games in a day.  It’s possible today teams travel so much and see so many umpires that we are losing that aspect of the game.

Too tinfoil?  I don’t think so, but at that age level I think you are giving them too much credit.  A varsity high school baseball coach (not all of them) will definitely haze you though.

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8 hours ago, agdz59 said:

That's what mystified me about the immediate BS I was getting.  Is it too tin foil to think I was being hazed?  

Yes, I think that is too tin foil hat. 

Its sound much more likely that you've got some poor coaches, whose bad behavior was actually embolden by some of your actions. As others have mentioned, you let way too much go, and let it go on far too long, but I suspect there were things in your actions that also encouraged their bad behavior.

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 there is one pitch where the pitcher motions the catcher to the outside box leaving me exposed in the slot.  He then throws a high inside fastball headed straight for me.  If the catcher hadn't reacted and tipped the ball away, I would have stopped the game right there. 

You are talking about 10U ball, where the pitchers have so little control that you've been told to call the opposite batters box a strike - and yet you think the pitcher has enough control to intentionally throw at your head? Doesn't it seem more likely that the pitcher asked the catcher to move out because, as you've made clear, that was part of your zone and then lost control because he's a 10 year old pitcher?

I'm not saying it's not possible for a pitcher to intentionally try to throw at you - but when that's your first instinct, in 10 year old ball, where the catcher did make an effort to catch it, I read it as you were already treating everything like a potential confrontation and players and coaches can see that in you too, which is likely to increase problems. 

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New pitcher starts demonstrating on balls right away egged on by the crowd.  I start called "BALL!" loudly when ever they miss. 

This to me is the cardinal sin. Rather than shutting down poor sportsmanship by coaches and players, you actually escalated the situation here and only encouraged more bad behavior, by engaging in bad behavior yourself.

I understand getting frustrated, but that's all the more reason to shut down bad behavior and shut it down quickly.

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 I'm getting tired of pitchers delaying the game and demonstrating so I call time, approach the visiting bench and tell them I've had enough and this is there warning. .....

In  the bottom of the third the visiting pitcher is demonstrating.  

This also I think is a big part of your problem - you issued a warning, and then when the behavior continues, you didn't follow through, thus undermining your own credibility. The warning didn't mean anything because they didn't think you would follow through - and you didn't. 

It's not really a surprise that once you actually did take action, things improved significantly. Learn from that. It's not fun to eject someone from a 10U game - but it's still a whole lot better than teaching kids horrible sportsmanship, which as you saw yourself, they will quickly start copying and acting out themselves if they think it's acceptable. 

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33 minutes ago, nowheresville said:

 

It's not really a surprise that once you actually did take action, things improved significantly. Learn from that. It's not fun to eject someone from a 10U game - but it's still a whole lot better than teaching kids horrible sportsmanship, which as you saw yourself, they will quickly start copying and acting out themselves if they think it's acceptable. 

Thank you Nowheresville.  Lots of good feedback to think about.

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Situations like this is what made me take the rest of the year off, which gave me a lot of time to think. When coaches started mouthing off to me like what happened in your game (very similar situations except mine was high school varsity), I should have warned and then tossed had it continued. 

If I believe a kid throws at me intentionally, he's gone no questions asked. In that situation, I'm erring on "that little bastard threw at me. He's gone." This is a safety issue and can not be ignored. I especially wouldn't have put up with a ten year old doing that.

As someone else said, you're new and still learning (as am I). Don't put up with that crap again.

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