Feet past the white chalk of batter box

[Guest Jack]

I know that the batter box includes the white line. But would you permit a pitcher to pitch in a high school game when the batter toes were practically touching home plate (heals only on the white line). Is there any HS rule or interp that covers this situation ? 

I didn't allow it, but have since talked to umpires that would allow the batter to stand illegally ... and he gets what he gets. Did I over-officiate this situation ?

[Senor Azul]

2019 NFHS Case Book Play 7.3.2 Situation A:  When is a batter’s foot considered to be inside the batter’s box? RULING:  The batter is considered to be in the batter’s box when no part of either foot is touching the ground outside the boundary lines forming the batter’s box. It is permissible for the feet to be touching the boundary lines that form the batter’s box, since the lines are a part of the box. The batter may legally hit the ball with one foot in the box and the other foot in the air outside the box, and then contact the ground outside the box with the foot that was airborne.

Also see case plays 7.3.2 B and C. In other words, the batter must stand completely in the batter’s box with no part of either foot touching the ground outside the batter’s box.

[kylehutson]

From the NFHS Case book:

--

7.3.2 SITUATION B:

B1 assumes his batting stance (a) with his right foot on the back line but not outside the back line of the batter’s box, (b) with his right foot partially on the back line and partially outside the back line of the batter’s box, or (c) with his right foot completely outside the back line of the batter’s box.

RULING: The stance in (a) is proper. However, in (b) and (c), the umpire shall instruct the batter to assume his stance so neither foot is outside the lines of the batter’s box.

--

Based on this, he needs to start completely inside the batter's box. The "completely outside the batter's box" terminology comes into play in determining whether or not to call a batter out for hitting a ball outside the batter's box.

In fact, I had a high school game this week where a batter stood with his toes less than 3" from the plate (the batter's box lines had been wiped out through the course of the game). I called time, took the knob of his bat and drew a batter's box line and told him to setup outside that line.

[Jimurray]

18 minutes ago, Guest Jack said:

I know that the batter box includes the white line. But would you permit a pitcher to pitch in a high school game when the batter toes were practically touching home plate (heals only on the white line). Is there any HS rule or interp that covers this situation ? 

I didn't allow it, but have since talked to umpires that would allow the batter to stand illegally ... and he gets what he gets. Did I over-officiate this situation ?

Depends on the level of play. If they can deal with that, not complain and you call the inside strike let it go. If it’s a sub sent up to draw a walk move him back. You do know that as soon as the pitch is on the way his position will be legal if he hits the ball. 

[Jimurray]

3 minutes ago, kylehutson said:

From the NFHS Case book:

--

7.3.2 SITUATION B:

B1 assumes his batting stance (a) with his right foot on the back line but not outside the back line of the batter’s box, (b) with his right foot partially on the back line and partially outside the back line of the batter’s box, or (c) with his right foot completely outside the back line of the batter’s box.

RULING: The stance in (a) is proper. However, in (b) and (c), the umpire shall instruct the batter to assume his stance so neither foot is outside the lines of the batter’s box.

--

Based on this, he needs to start completely inside the batter's box. The "completely outside the batter's box" terminology comes into play in determining whether or not to call a batter out for hitting a ball outside the batter's box.

In fact, I had a high school game this week where a batter stood with his toes less than 3" from the plate (the batter's box lines had been wiped out through the course of the game). I called time, took the knob of his bat and drew a batter's box line and told him to setup outside that line.

Some catchers and pitchers have no problem throwing at that batters knees and you calling it a strike. But it depends on the sit. 

[Guest Jack]

Ah ... thank you, Senor Azul. 7.3.2B has the answer that I sought. 

 ... the umpire shall instruct the batter to assume his stance so neither foot is outside the lines of the batter’s box.

[Guest Jack]

5 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Some catchers and pitchers have no problem throwing at that batters knees and you calling it a strike. But it depends on the sit. 

But most F1/F2 WOULD have a problem throwing at a batter's knees (the ones that you mention are sick mofos). I wouldn't want to put that choice on F1/F2. This is a HS bb game...kids. You can't let that situation happen.   

[kylehutson]

The point is that if you can't see the batter's box lines, you can't tell them to get back in it. If you can, there's no problem, just tell him to keep his toes inside the line.

In my case (where the line is gone), rather than let him stand where I know he shouldn't, I chose to be proactive and make a line to keep that from happening.

[Jimurray]

9 hours ago, Guest Jack said:

But most F1/F2 WOULD have a problem throwing at a batter's knees (the ones that you mention are sick mofos). I wouldn't want to put that choice on F1/F2. This is a HS bb game...kids. You can't let that situation happen.   

They can be in a legal position and have their knees in the strike zone. They can be in a legal position to start and when the pitch is on the way they can then move to the position you described to hit the ball. If the level you’re calling is intimidated using all of the strike zone by the first case then move them back. If not, don’t. 

[yawetag]

Just to add to the discussion. If his toes are touching the plate and he makes contact with the ball, that's an out (7-3-2).

[Guest Jack]

42 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

They can be in a legal position and have their knees in the strike zone. true, but not germane to the OP. They can be in a legal position to start not germane to the OP and when the pitch is on the way they can then move to the position you described to hit the ball. true, but not germane to the OP. If the level you’re calling is intimidated using all of the strike zone by the first case then move them back. If not, don’t. 

Pre-pitch, with a HS batter beyond the batter's box, CB 7.3.2B clearly states that you instruct the batter to get into a legal position. To allow such an illegal batting stance to exist is dangerous and irresponsible .... and you're opening the door for trouble to find you. 

[Aging_Arbiter]

[Jimurray]

2 hours ago, Guest Jack said:

Pre-pitch, with a HS batter beyond the batter's box, CB 7.3.2B clearly states that you instruct the batter to get into a legal position. To allow such an illegal batting stance to exist is dangerous and irresponsible .... and you're opening the door for trouble to find you. 

You realize that caseplay deals with the back line. Most of us would enforce the caseplay in that case because it it gives him an advantage that the battery can’t overcome. But I wouldn’t call having any foot out dangerous . 

 

 

[yawetag]

55 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

You realize that caseplay deals with the back line. Most of us would enforce the caseplay in that case because it it gives him an advantage that the battery can’t overcome. But I wouldn’t call having any foot out dangerous . 

 

 

7.3.2.A would like a word with you:

SITUATION A: When is a batter’s foot considered to be inside the batter’s box?

RULING: The batter is considered to be in the batter’s box when no part of either foot is touching the ground outside the boundary lines forming the batter’s box. It is permissible for the feet to be touching the boundary lines that form the batter’s box, since the lines are a part of the box. The batter may legally hit the ball with one foot in the box and the other foot in the air outside the box, and then contact the ground outside the box with the foot that was airborne.

[Jimurray]

33 minutes ago, yawetag said:

7.3.2.A would like a word with you:

SITUATION A: When is a batter’s foot considered to be inside the batter’s box?

RULING: The batter is considered to be in the batter’s box when no part of either foot is touching the ground outside the boundary lines forming the batter’s box. It is permissible for the feet to be touching the boundary lines that form the batter’s box, since the lines are a part of the box. The batter may legally hit the ball with one foot in the box and the other foot in the air outside the box, and then contact the ground outside the box with the foot that was airborne.

You'll have to explain what that means to my philosophy regarding enforcing the rule. Prepitch no part of the foot encroaching outside the line of the box although I might allow it if the catcher doesn't complain. Pitch on the way the feet can be anywhere until the bat hits the ball. When the bat hits the ball no foot can be completely out of the box touching the ground or touching any part of the plate whether completely out of the box or not. That caseplay deals with rule 7-3-2. Foot or knee out of the box when hitting the ball. 

[Senor Azul]

I wonder, Mr. Jimurray, what level of play you are referring to that you would allow the batter to start in an illegal position? I don’t think it would be college ball. Here are the applicable rules for NCAA and it seems to me they are pretty determined not to allow the batter to start in an illegal position.

2017-18 NCAA rule 1-3a. Before a contest, it is mandatory to line all four sides of the 4-foot-by-6 foot batter’s box as shown in the diagram above. At the time of the pitch, the batter shall have both feet inside the batter’s box.

Rule 7-1f. A batter’s legal position in the box shall be defined as having both feet completely within the box (lines are part of the box).

Note Umpires are to enforce this rule as written. If the line of the batter’s box has been erased, the umpire shall require that upon the batter’s initial stance, both feet are no closer than 6 inches from the inside edge of home plate.

Also thank you, Mr. yawetag, for repeating the reference to case play 7.3.2A. It is the same play I used in the very first reply to the question posed in the OP (and, yes, I realize I am the first to mention the NCAA and the OP asked about FED).

 

[Jimurray]

8 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

I wonder, Mr. Jimurray, what level of play you are referring to that you would allow the batter to start in an illegal position? I don’t think it would be college ball. Here are the applicable rules for NCAA and it seems to me they are pretty determined not to allow the batter to start in an illegal position.

2017-18 NCAA rule 1-3a. Before a contest, it is mandatory to line all four sides of the 4-foot-by-6 foot batter’s box as shown in the diagram above. At the time of the pitch, the batter shall have both feet inside the batter’s box.

Rule 7-1f. A batter’s legal position in the box shall be defined as having both feet completely within the box (lines are part of the box).

Note Umpires are to enforce this rule as written. If the line of the batter’s box has been erased, the umpire shall require that upon the batter’s initial stance, both feet are no closer than 6 inches from the inside edge of home plate.

Also thank you, Mr. yawetag, for repeating the reference to case play 7.3.2A. It is the same play I used in the very first reply to the question posed in the OP (and, yes, I realize I am the first to mention the NCAA and the OP asked about FED).

 

In my college games I carry a six inch ruler for when the lines are obliterated. A quarter of an inch could make a difference in how the pitcher pitches.

[yawetag]

1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

You'll have to explain what that means to my philosophy regarding enforcing the rule.  

You implied in your previous post that you'd only consider a foot being outside the back line as a "get back in the box" situation, as that was what the caseplay referenced. I was showing you that the previous caseplay specifically states all lines in the box are eligible for the "get back in" statement.

Maybe I misinterpreted what you were trying to say.

[Jimurray]

8 minutes ago, yawetag said:

You implied in your previous post that you'd only consider a foot being outside the back line as a "get back in the box" situation, as that was what the caseplay referenced. I was showing you that the previous caseplay specifically states all lines in the box are eligible for the "get back in" statement.

Maybe I misinterpreted what you were trying to say.

Encroaching on any of the lines prepitch would be a "get back in" sit but I would use some judgement about how strict I would enforce. But that caseplay is referring to what the batters feet can do when a pitch is on the way and he is trying to hit it. The "feet touching the lines" refers to a foot partially out of the box with some part of it still touching the line while striking at the pitch. I don't think you would be saying get back in while the batter was swinging.

[umpstu]

I'm not going to allow a pitcher to pitch unless the batter is in the box and that includes his feet not being outside of the lines of the batters box.  If I see he's not I'll throw up a hand to tell the pitcher not to pitch.  If after the pitcher throws a pitch the batter decides to get hit outside of the batter's box, in or out of the strike zone, then you have to decide if the pitch was a ball or strike.  We actually had an umpire in our hs unit who turned out to be giving hs players batting lessons and was telling them it was alright for their toes to be outside of the box between the plate and batter's box.  I discovered this when we were having a pre season umpire's clinic and he was telling umpires it was ok.  When confronted he told me for the purpose of the clinic he was right.  I also knew which kids and coaches he was working with on batting with as I always had to put the kids back in the box and had to let the coach know that that umpire was putting out bogus info.  That umpire would also show up to watch games and you would figure out he was also giving catcher's lessons becouse he was coaching them from the bleachers.  Didn't even try to hide it.

[yawetag]

48 minutes ago, umpstu said:

We actually had an umpire in our hs unit who turned out to be giving hs players batting lessons and was telling them it was alright for their toes to be outside of the box between the plate and batter's box.

Does the "had" refer to him no longer coaching, no longer umpiring, or both?

[umpstu]

8 hours ago, yawetag said:

Does the "had" refer to him no longer coaching, no longer umpiring, or both?

He actually moved out of state, but still umpires.

[Jimurray]

Just to give an example of how at some levels you might not strictly enforce this is a quote from the MLBUM. I bolded some of it:  "There is no penalty specified for the violation other than the batter shall be instructed to stay within the batter's box if brought to the attention of the umpire, or - if blatant or recurring violation- upon immediate direction of the umpire."