Rough slide into 2nd - How do i watch that slide and make the call at 1st on DP

[beerguy55]

12 hours ago, VolUmp said:

Districts at Top Level Programs should get consistent in all states and demand 3-man for regular season District games. There is just too much riding on it, and we don't have replay.  Most officials here love working 3-man, and would give up even more of their paycheck to work 3-man (as compared to the 2-man fee) in a District game.

 

12 hours ago, VolUmp said:

If the school can’t afford that, maybe each team should have a parent from the home team provide the $30 on a rotating basis starting with parents of Seniors.

Is the issue one of economics, or population?  Are there enough umpires sitting around at home doing nothing to fill any/all three-man lineup gaps?

Because, frankly, most people I've dealt with would gladly pay for four-man crews all year long....in my experience cost hasn't been the issue in this decision.   Coaching a club team where the outlay is in the neighborhood of $8000/year, including travel costs, per player, forking out an extra $250/player/year to ensure there is an extra umpire for all 80ish games is something most of the parents would gladly pay.

[VolUmp]

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

Is the issue one of economics, or population?  Are there enough umpires sitting around at home doing nothing to fill any/all three-man lineup gaps?

Because, frankly, most people I've dealt with would gladly pay for four-man crews all year long....in my experience cost hasn't been the issue in this decision.   Coaching a club team where the outlay is in the neighborhood of $8000/year, including travel costs, per player, forking out an extra $250/player/year to ensure there is an extra umpire for all 80ish games is something most of the parents would gladly pay.

I suppose it can be both, but around here, Varsity Baseball Teams (Public and Private) are on very tight budgets. There is one school reknowned for not giving umpires free water. (Yeah … I said it … you know who you are.)

The next Association over from mine provides 3-Man crews for every District game in the top 3 (of 5) Divisions in Tennessee.  I think my Association could handle that if the schools would pony up the money.

With make-ups and screwy scheduling due to weather and spring breaks, etc., it’s accepted that once in a while they will settle for a good 2-Man crew on a District Game.

In my Association, with all 5 Divisions, no one does 3-Man until the Post-Season, and then it’s only the top Division District Tournament that votes for 3-Man each year. This was my 14th year … the coaches vote every year, and none of the other 4 Divisions have ever gone with 3-Man. It IS made available to them, so I’d say the answer is $$$.

[Stk004]

I'm going to disrupt the general consensus on here for a minute. All the responses where PU has the slide at second are appropriate for FED and FPSR. 

But with the addition of a bona fide slide in OBR, we have a similar situation that could arise: an illegal slide (and INT) at second base. However, the MiLB mechanic for PU with R1, on a ground ball to the infield, is to move up the third base line towards the library (if R1 is retired he retreats back to the plate). BU is responsible for the play at second, including an illegal slide by R1. It's an extremely difficult call to make, considering BU has everything on this play, but it's still his responsibility.

[VolUmp]

7 hours ago, Stk004 said:

I'm going to disrupt the general consensus on here for a minute. All the responses where PU has the slide at second are appropriate for FED and FPSR. 

But with the addition of a bona fide slide in OBR, we have a similar situation that could arise: an illegal slide (and INT) at second base. However, the MiLB mechanic for PU with R1, on a ground ball to the infield, is to move up the third base line towards the library (if R1 is retired he retreats back to the plate). BU is responsible for the play at second, including an illegal slide by R1. It's an extremely difficult call to make, considering BU has everything on this play, but it's still his responsibility.

Are you talking two-man?

[Stk004]

3 hours ago, VolUmp said:

Are you talking two-man?

Yeah, two man. I'm not familiar with 3 or 4 man. 

[grayhawk]

11 hours ago, Stk004 said:

I'm going to disrupt the general consensus on here for a minute. All the responses where PU has the slide at second are appropriate for FED and FPSR. 

But with the addition of a bona fide slide in OBR, we have a similar situation that could arise: an illegal slide (and INT) at second base. However, the MiLB mechanic for PU with R1, on a ground ball to the infield, is to move up the third base line towards the library (if R1 is retired he retreats back to the plate). BU is responsible for the play at second, including an illegal slide by R1. It's an extremely difficult call to make, considering BU has everything on this play, but it's still his responsibility.

As we all know, two man is a series of trade offs. The trade off here appears to be which you value more: (1) the potential illegal slide at second and potential pulled foot/swipe tag at first, or (2) the potential play at third base.

Clearly, the safe/out at third is the most important call since calls on runners closer to home are more critical. However, it's also the least likely scenario (R1 safe at second and advancing).  The potential illegal slide is also important and fairly infrequent, while the pulled foot/swipe tag is the most likely but happens furthest from home.

MiLB appears to value the potential play at third the most, even though it's less likely to occur.  

[noumpere]

I agree with Grayhawk's analysis, and will add -- you can get (most of) the plays at second from either side of the mound.  You also have less time to react to a play at first.

 

And, of course, I've been burnt by a PU going to third when there was a swipe-play, so I much prefer the PU got toward first and then react. 

 

 

[VolUmp]

5 hours ago, noumpere said:

I've been burnt by a PU going to third when there was a swipe-play

Toooooo — Shaaaaaaaaayy

[FleasOf1000Camels]

Many, MANY years ago, I was working with an older veteran partner, and we had this play.  I was BU, and R1 went nearly to the outfield grass in order to take out the pivot man.  I called R1 out, called the interference and the BR out as well.  After the game my partner told me I shouldn't have made that call, as it was his responsibility.  I asked "if I hadn't made the call, would you have made it?"  He said "No, because I'm too far away, not a great angle, and the pitcher in the way."  I (little more than a rookie at the time) then asked "why, then do all the mechanics manuals say that's the plate guy's call?"  His response was classic "I don't think anybody actually wants us to make that call.  The take-out slide is part of the game."

[VolUmp]

On 11/8/2017 at 12:09 PM, FleasOf1000Camels said:

"The take-out slide is part of the game."

That was certainly true, as you say, "Many, MANY years ago, but going to the grass to take the pivot man out hasn't been part of the game in my lifetime (1963) and I grew up a die-hard Reds fan with a little known roughneck player named Rose who popped up, Barrell Rolled, reached, kicked, tripped, bowled over, and like during Michael Jordan's day ... it was often said he was given special treatment by the refs, there's no doubt that Rose was given special treatment by the Umps.  They really started flirting with INT when guys like Albert Belle were getting away with forearming guys to the ground half way to 2B.

[MadMax]

On 9/26/2017 at 12:37 PM, KenBAZ said:

I agree, as BU I'm getting this most of the time. If the slide is late and perhaps contact happens behind the bag I'd depend on my partner to get it. If I have it before I turn, I point and announce "Time, that's interference". Turn to 1B, point at the BR and say, "He's out!" with my out mechanic.

Witnessed @KenBAZ do this first-hand (I was PU) and he nailed it.

Which resolution is best for us, as an umpire crew? If a FPSR violation occurs post-F4/6 release, should the PU wait for the BU to come to him? Should the PU call time and go counsel the BU to coordinate a ruling/call? Or, should the PU just call it, tacking it on the end of the BU’s call of “Safe” at 1B of BR (because, of course, if BR is Out on the backend throw, FPSR is Interference isn’t applied).

But we do have to consider it, especially with the results being 2 outs only, yes? Say we have R3 & R1, 0 Outs. Grounder to right side of infield, freezes R3 for a moment, then flips to F6 at 2B. Gets the out at 2B, throws on to 1B, and gets taken out in a FPSR violation. Throw to 1B gets BR... what occurs now? Do we put R3 back at 3B?

[ALStripes17]

Witnessed [mention=2897]KenBAZ[/mention] do this first-hand (I was PU) and he nailed it.
Which resolution is best for us, as an umpire crew? If a FPSR violation occurs post-F4/6 release, should the PU wait for the BU to come to him? Should the PU call time and go counsel the BU to coordinate a ruling/call? Or, should the PU just call it, tacking it on the end of the BU’s call of “Safe” at 1B of BR (because, of course, if BR is Out on the backend throw, FPSR is Interference isn’t applied).
But we do have to consider it, especially with the results being 2 outs only, yes? Say we have R3 & R1, 0 Outs. Grounder to right side of infield, freezes R3 for a moment, then flips to F6 at 2B. Gets the out at 2B, throws on to 1B, and gets taken out in a FPSR violation. Throw to 1B gets BR... what occurs now? Do we put R3 back at 3B?

If BR is out at 1B, FPSR isn't applied? Where did you get this?

If there is a violation of FPSR, call it immediately and apply the penalty. I don't give a hoot what happens on that throw to 1B. See FPSR, call FPSR.

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[Jimurray]

6 hours ago, MadMax said:

Witnessed @KenBAZ do this first-hand (I was PU) and he nailed it.

Which resolution is best for us, as an umpire crew? If a FPSR violation occurs post-F4/6 release, should the PU wait for the BU to come to him? Should the PU call time and go counsel the BU to coordinate a ruling/call? Or, should the PU just call it, tacking it on the end of the BU’s call of “Safe” at 1B of BR (because, of course, if BR is Out on the backend throw, FPSR is Interference isn’t applied).

But we do have to consider it, especially with the results being 2 outs only, yes? Say we have R3 & R1, 0 Outs. Grounder to right side of infield, freezes R3 for a moment, then flips to F6 at 2B. Gets the out at 2B, throws on to 1B, and gets taken out in a FPSR violation. Throw to 1B gets BR... what occurs now? Do we put R3 back at 3B?

Very confusing post. In any code. Are you the guy who has disdained FED on certain rules but not ones that most of us would agree with. But why not answer my question in previous posts. What beef do you have with FED other than the ones most of us have? You haven't repsonded to my question in those threads. But anyway, If somebody, a PU or BU,  in any code, FED, NCAA, OBR,  calls the FPSR violation in that code's rule why would you be in doubt that R3 would not have to have to return or not be credited with a run?

  

[MadMax]

14 hours ago, ALStripes17 said:

If BR is out at 1B, FPSR isn't applied? Where did you get this?

If there is a violation of FPSR, call it immediately and apply the penalty. I don't give a hoot what happens on that throw to 1B. See FPSR, call FPSR.

Is this advice being given as/to a BU or as/to a PU? If to a BU, absolutely, if FPSR is judged, it should/shall be called. But if to a PU... What then? Especially with a quick touch of 2B and a release/throw, the BU is, as we’ve discussed throughout this thread, already turning/turned to watch 1B and the BR. The throw arrives, and F3 (F1 perhaps, rarely) either touches 1B or tags BR to bring a call of “Out!”. Meanwhile, the (retired) R1 has committed a FPSR violation that the PU sees from his vantage point.

What is a PU supposed to do?

More often than not, in this case, nothing is said by the PU during the play sequence because, oh well, the backend Out was made anyway. That’s what I meant by “not applied”, @ALStripes17. Usually, that backend out comes with no one else on base or is an IEDP (the third out). Sure, some crews might get together on the 1BL between innings and share that FPSR was violated, but what is the prescibed method?

Yes, of course FPSR is a form of interference, thus, if the backend Out is only the 2nd Out – whether it be naturally completed or applied via penalty – then the offense should not be gaining an advantage. Runners should be returned (yes? I’m making sure). I’m mentioning this as encouragement / reinforcement to PU’s, some of whom may fail to apply FPSR, despite them seeing its occurrence, because the backend out of the DP at 1B was completed. So here again, what is the proper protocol to apply a FPSR violation penalty, by a PU, when the backend Out is completed anyway?

[ALStripes17]

Is this advice being given as/to a BU or as/to a PU? If to a BU, absolutely, if FPSR is judged, it should/shall be called. But if to a PU... What then? Especially with a quick touch of 2B and a release/throw, the BU is, as we’ve discussed throughout this thread, already turning/turned to watch 1B and the BR. The throw arrives, and F3 (F1 perhaps, rarely) either touches 1B or tags BR to bring a call of “Out!”. Meanwhile, the (retired) R1 has committed a FPSR violation that the PU sees from his vantage point.
What is a PU supposed to do?
More often than not, in this case, nothing is said by the PU during the play sequence because, oh well, the backend Out was made anyway. That’s what I meant by “not applied”, [mention=2941]ALStripes17[/mention]. Usually, that backend out comes with no one else on base or is an IEDP (the third out). Sure, some crews might get together on the 1BL between innings and share that FPSR was violated, but what is the prescibed method?
Yes, of course FPSR is a form of interference, thus, if the backend Out is only the 2nd Out – whether it be naturally completed or applied via penalty – then the offense should not be gaining an advantage. Runners should be returned (yes? I’m making sure). I’m mentioning this as encouragement / reinforcement to PU’s, some of whom may fail to apply FPSR, despite them seeing its occurrence, because the backend out of the DP at 1B was completed. So here again, what is the proper protocol to apply a FPSR violation penalty, by a PU, when the backend Out is completed anyway?

I gave you the reply. See INT, call INT... Especially FPSR. We don't wait to see what happens on the back end. PU or BU, doesn't matter. PU has the responsibility for it when a throw is made by the middle infielder. If he sees a violation of FPSR, he kills all immediately, sells it heavily, and prescribes the remedy without hesitation.

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[noumpere]

4 hours ago, MadMax said:

What is a PU supposed to do?

 

THe same thing BU is supposed to do.  Call it when it happens and don't wait for the result of any subsequent play.

 

(And, the same thing U2 is supposed to do in 3- or 4- or 6-man.)