overruled strike

[956UMP]

No strictly baseball

[jkumpire]

This is a very interesting thread, more than I expected. May I ask for opinions.

Ohio District tournament game, I'm on the plate, 3 man crew with R1. Count is 0-0. Batter squares, pitch is directly at his midsection. Batter more or less flinches as the pitch clearly hits him in the right hand, bat never moved until he dropped it. I called the HPB, sent him to 1B. Here comes the HC. 

"John, I know the ball hit him but he offered at the pitch."

"Sir, I'm sorry but in my judgment the bat did not move toward the ball and it hit his hand. He tried to move his body to avoid the pitch, but clearly there is no movement of the bat to the ball."

"John, I think you are wrong, will you please check that with you 1B umpire?"

"I understand your point, but in this case i am not going to my partner sir, my partner is not going to have a better view of the play than I had."

Head coach walks back to the dugout, Two batters and one double play later the inning is over with no runs score.

In NCAA/OBR I am checking with R1 by rule, but there is a gray area here. Can BU/U1 really have a better view than the PU on a ball inside the body frame of a batter to make a judgment call that the batter's bat is moving because his body is moving or flinching to get out of the way? Unless the bat was clearly moving at the ball, and I did not see the bat head/barrel move, it seems that BU/U1 has no way to make the judgment of a flinch vs. offer in that situation.  

After the game both of my partners said that from their view/perspective said i got the call right, the only thing that moved was the batter's body, not the bat. Still, maybe in retrospect I should have checked with my R1, but I was so sure of my call and it is FED, I didn't.

As an aside, if I did go to U1 I really feel that a simple check swing would not be appropriate, I would have conferred with both partners. Agree or disagree?

Thanks for your time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Mister B]

This is a judgement call. IMHO, even if the bat moved to the ball, we have to determine, was that because the batter offered, or because he was trying to get out of the way of the pitch? 

IIRC, the batter must try to avoid being HBP. Which takes precedence? Avoiding the pitch or not moving the bat? 

[maven]

1 hour ago, jkumpire said:

As an aside, if I did go to U1 I really feel that a simple check swing would not be appropriate, I would have conferred with both partners. Agree or disagree?

As an observer on that game, I'd expect you to discuss with at least U1, if not the crew. Although disguised, this is a check swing appeal, and the others might have had info for you.

1 minute ago, Mister B said:

IIRC, the batter must try to avoid being HBP. Which takes precedence? Avoiding the pitch or not moving the bat? 

That's not the FED language: he may not "permit a pitched ball to hit him" (7-3-4). It sounds as if that condition was satisfied; but in any case, that's not the issue raised by the coach.

[KenBAZ]

I agree that in this case and in the OP that this is a check swing appeal. What is the downside of checking with your partner? You don't have to, but why wouldn't you? I trust the guys I work with to give me what they have. Not to overrule me friviously, to help us get this right. If I can just point and ask, "John, did he offer?", take what he gives me and move on, why not? These situations seem routine to me. I'd like to think there would not be any problems with coaches or my crew as a result of them.

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[Replacematt]

It is far more likely for a PU to miss an attempt (especially on HBPs) than for a BU to have one where there wasn't. Go to your partner when asked.

[jkumpire]

Thank you for your thoughts.

1. Maven, we pregamed how to warn a partner if you had extra information for a partner on a play. I looked at both base umpires and saw no signal. 

2. Ken, Yes it is a check swing appeal,. but more, which is why I did not make an appeal which i can legally do. I saw at least half the bat if not more, and it didn't move until after the batter got hit. I heard it hit the hands, and was sure the barrel did not move. that was enough for me to demonstrate no attempt. BU may be able to see hands and bat, but I am not convinced U1 or U3 could tell me if the bat moved because the batter was trying to get out of the way or trying to bunt the ball.

3. Like Maven said, if I am checking the swing I an conferring with both my base umpires. But after the enlightening discussion I am still convinced I did the right thing under the circumstances. It is my call, Its a HPB situation fiorst, not a check swing appeal, and in Fed I could make the call. My responsibility, own your call. .  

 

 

[KenBAZ]

JK:

There is a lot that goes into on field decisions ithersmake that we can't know. Thanks for explaining some if it. The context of crew dynamics, history and tendencies has an effect. So does the flow of the game and past history with these teams and coaches. What we are trying to accomplish in this fourm is a type of group learning. We work from a specific situation to some better understanding the group of us can then apply in similar, (they can never be exactly the same), situations. You've helped me to do that. As I've said throughout this tread, I don't know what was going in with the crew here. In the situations I most often work, with guys I work with often, let me suggest how what happened would be different then what you describe. It might be helpful to some as well. If we'd pre-gamed something for my partners to let me know they had some information for me, (tap of the chest is pretty standard) and I didn't get it from either of them and then they wanted to get involved without my asking, it would indeed be a direct conversation after the game. However, again subject to what had been going on with the coaching staffs, I would have asked for help on the check swing possibility even if I was 100% sure he had not committed. "Rich, did he go", limits my partner to answering the question as asked. It keeps the coach in the dugout, it makes us seem more approachable and unified. Also, a big part of our job is demonstrating to players and coaches how things are done. While a coach can ask for and expect to get an appeal on a check swing when I've ruled the hitter didn't go, as you've pointed out, he can't argue balls and strikes. Let me take away the only valid thing he has to ask about by going right away on the check swing. I will then educate him as necessary if he tries to continue the discussion, from an informed position. He's exhausted his avenue of appeal, now he's arguing balls and strikes, which by rule coach, I know you know, you can't do. I love and agree with your "one riot, one ranger", desire to maintain control of the situation once it was clear he wanted something more then a check swing appeal. In many cases you'd be in a stronger position because you had already demonstrated your crew was on top of the situation and in agreement with you. Now when I say it's my call, my partners would have jumped in already if they had something and he can't continue to argue balls and strikes I'm coming from a position if strength. As I said your situation might not have been helped by handling it this way, but perhaps the next one one of us gets we could try this approach.

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