Stoping motion with no runners on.

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, dumbdumb said:

Isn't a tie something that is worn with a suit?

Since there have only been 12 ties/dead heats in American Horse Racing History, it would be analytically safe to assume that when one has that situation in baseball, the call should be to raise that right hand for the out and say that is not a tie and get all but 12 of the gazillion calls correct, rather than be sorry for spreading the arms apart for the safe call and saying that the play is a tie and getting only 12 calls out of a gazillion correct.

As to the OP, I can offer no words of wisdom or statistical analysis.

On a safe call you would say the ball or tag did not beat the runner which is what the OBR rules require at 1B and a forced base. If you call it out and say the runner did not beat the ball a coach, not @Rich Ives or @beerguy55, could protest it. So the out call should be that the ball beat the runner. But I wouldn't worry about a protest happening. While it's a semantic argument that should have no relationship to real baseball, MLB did recognize an inconsistency in their wording at a forced base and 1B and changed one to match the other quite a few years ago. While they could have semantically changed one to a tie goes to the fielder they chose instead to change the other to a tie goes to runner.  They must have had a reason for that.

[Rich Ives]

5 hours ago, dumbdumb said:

Isn't a tie something that is worn with a suit?

Since there have only been 12 ties/dead heats in American Horse Racing History, it would be analytically safe to assume that when one has that situation in baseball, the call should be to raise that right hand for the out and say that is not a tie and get all but 12 of the gazillion calls correct, rather than be sorry for spreading the arms apart for the safe call and saying that the play is a tie and getting only 12 calls out of a gazillion correct.

As to the OP, I can offer no words of wisdom or statistical analysis.

The arguments against ties in baseball usually degrade into looking at the event in millionths of a second so you could also do the same to those horse races. For all practical purposes there are ties.

[beerguy55]

On 1/1/2019 at 11:38 AM, dumbdumb said:

Isn't a tie something that is worn with a suit?

Since there have only been 12 ties/dead heats in American Horse Racing History, it would be analytically safe to assume that when one has that situation in baseball, the call should be to raise that right hand for the out and say that is not a tie and get all but 12 of the gazillion calls correct, rather than be sorry for spreading the arms apart for the safe call and saying that the play is a tie and getting only 12 calls out of a gazillion correct.

As to the OP, I can offer no words of wisdom or statistical analysis.

I don't disagree (though I'm sure the gamblers and bookies would have some input into whether or not they want dead heats)....but....

As the camera and timing technology get better those dead heats will disappear too.  I've said it before - as far as I know the Olympics have ties to sometimes two, and usually three decimal places...in ALL race events - from the 50 meter swim sprint to the 50 km cross country ski.   If they can live with ties, baseball can live with ties.  And I truly hope they never go to four, five and six decimal places. 

Do we really want to get to a point where instant replay zooms in to 6000x, with 64k supreme-extreme-high definition to determine if the ball beat the runner? 

At that point you're arguing at the molecular level, and then I'd argue that at the molecular level objects never actually touch - so a ball is never caught, a tag is never made, and a runner never touches any base - and we'd have to cancel baseball altogether.   

I myself prefer the language in FED and softball, which, to paraphrase, say the runner is out if tagged while not in contact with the base.   I think it is more simple, and is more in line with the historical spirit of the game.  That is, if you're touching the (proper) base, you're safe.  And, in a tie, you're touching the base.  Ergo, tie goes to the runner.

I know umps want outs.  The fans want runs.  As @Jimurray alludes, you can't say "it was a tie" because you just create a sh!tstorm - but I have no problem with an umpire in his head ruling it a tie and then simply saying "he was there".  In reality, I don't really care if the ump is right or wrong at that point - if the call is truly that close the coach shouldn't be arguing, at all.  If a coach utters the word tie he should be bitch slapped.   As a coach, I wasn't saying a word to an umpire if the runner was out/safe by less than half a step (and more often than not it was a full step before I was asking him to talk to his partner) - it didn't mean I was right, but I better be certain, in my mind, it was an "obvious" miss - and no coach should be arguing "it was obviously a tie"....and this is where I segue into MLB replay rules - it should be "obvious" before challenging - meaning no phone calls, no TV's in the dugout - you have ten seconds to challenge - your player should be adamant the call was wrong (and he better be right)...and if the umps/head office can't see any reason to overturn the call in 15 seconds, the call stands.   Because, back to my original point, I dread the day where advanced technology allows for replay reviews to the microscopic level.

 

 

[Vegas_Ump]

I use LL Rules, which are OBR-based.  Rule 8 is pretty confusing, as it does say what infractions can be called, but it is not perfectly clear whether a ball is awarded, it's nothing, or it's a balk call.

There are three defined cases where a ball is added to the count if no runners are on:  Licking the fingers while on the rubber, doctoring the baseball, and an illegal quick pitch.  These are ruled as "illegal pitches", for which a ball is added to the count regardless of runners or not.  But just about anything else that would be a balk does not award a ball to the count if there are no runners on.  It's nothing.

To add to the confusion (in LL 60'), they have defined all "balk" moves as "illegal pitches";  it only matters when there are runners on base, and then you do add a ball to the count and increment the pitcher's pitch count.  With no runners on, it's nothing.  Last season, I had an OOO official scorer who said I should have incremented a ball (no runners on) because I had called an IP on a guy who stopped his motion.  And of course, she shoved the rule book in my face and said "See, it says any illegal pitch is a ball to the count."  I decided I was not going to hold a rules clinic for an official scorer/parent of a home team kid.  Wondered why the HTM didn't ask........   LOL!

I agree with the gent who pointed out the 20-second delay of game award of a ball;  but that's not a "pitch" (legal or illegal) and the pitcher's count is not incremented.

Vegas Ump

 

[Kevin_K]

Ejections are not limited to players and team personnel. You may have missed one there.

 

 

 

 

 

[Senor Azul]

Mr. Vegas_Ump, if I’m understanding you correctly, you called an illegal pitch on a pitcher who stopped his delivery with no runners on. Is that right? I have to disagree with that call—according to the RIM you would call nothing if the pitcher stops his delivery with no runners on. Here’s the relevant rule and the comment from the Little League Rules Instruction Manual (RIM):

8.05 – With a runner or runners on base, it is an illegal pitch – Major/Minor League [a balk in Intermediate (50-70) Division/Junior/Senior League] when –

(a) the pitcher, while touching the plate, makes any motion naturally associated with the pitch and fails to make such delivery;

2018 Little League Baseball Umpire School Rules Instruction Manual

INSTRUCTOR COMMENTS:  MAJORS/MINOR: With no runners on base you only call an illegal pitch if (e) and/or (g) are committed. Otherwise, call nothing with no runners on base at any level of play.

[Vegas_Ump]

15 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

Mr. Vegas_Ump, if I’m understanding you correctly, you called an illegal pitch on a pitcher who stopped his delivery with no runners on. Is that right? I have to disagree with that call—according to the RIM you would call nothing if the pitcher stops his delivery with no runners on. Here’s the relevant rule and the comment from the Little League Rules Instruction Manual (RIM):

8.05 – With a runner or runners on base, it is an illegal pitch – Major/Minor League [a balk in Intermediate (50-70) Division/Junior/Senior League] when –

(a) the pitcher, while touching the plate, makes any motion naturally associated with the pitch and fails to make such delivery;

2018 Little League Baseball Umpire School Rules Instruction Manual

INSTRUCTOR COMMENTS:  MAJORS/MINOR: With no runners on base you only call an illegal pitch if (e) and/or (g) are committed. Otherwise, call nothing with no runners on base at any level of play.

No!  I called time!  I needed to instruct.  I did NOT add a ball to the count.  Sorry that was not clear.  Previously--with the other team at bat--I DID have a sitch where there were runners on, and the pitcher failed to deliver.  Point is that the official scorer asked why I didn't increment t a ball when their team was at bat.

 

Basic umpire rule #3:  Don't look for trouble!

Cheers!

Mike

[Senor Azul]

Just to clarify—at any level of Little League if a pitcher stops his delivery with no runners on there is no violation. We do not call it an illegal pitch and we do not add a ball to the batter’s count or add a pitch to the pitcher’s pitch count.

At the Majors/Minor levels if a pitcher stops his delivery with runner(s) on it is an illegal pitch. We do add a ball to the batter’s count and add one pitch to the pitcher’s pitch count.

Little League rule 8.5 PENALTY FOR AN ILLEGAL PITCH: Little League (Major)/Minor League: The ball is dead and no runners will advance. The pitch shall be called a ball even if the pitch is not actually thrown. EXCEPTION: If the pitch is delivered and a play follows the illegal pitch, the play shall be allowed to continue as a delayed dead ball. Upon completion of the play, the manager of the offense may advise the plate umpire of a decision to decline the illegal pitch penalty and accept the play. Such election shall be made immediately at the end of the play. However, if the batter hits the ball and reaches first base safely, and if all base-runners advance at least one base on the action resulting from the batted ball, the play proceeds without reference to the illegal pitch.

When an illegal pitch is called, regardless of whether the pitch is completed or not by the pitcher, a pitch will always be charged to the pitcher’s pitch count. (Rule 2.00 Definitions: Pitch) NOTE: Under no circumstances shall a balk be called in Little League (Major) or Minor League.

A PITCH is a ball delivered to the batter by the pitcher [Baseball: Little League/Minor League Exception: For the purpose of maintaining a pitch count, an illegal pitch shall count as one pitch; even if a pitch is not actually thrown]

Do we agree or disagree on all this?

[mwest5575]

Several years ago I was filling in on the bases for my son's minor's little league game. The opposing pitcher, several times per batter, would (from the stretch) take a step to pitch, stop, then immediately take another step and pitch. Obviously this was throwing the batters' timing way off. In my judgment this qualified as an illegal pitch (quick pitch) because the batters did not have time to reset before the actual pitch would come in. Thoughts?

[Jimurray]

34 minutes ago, mwest5575 said:

Several years ago I was filling in on the bases for my son's minor's little league game. The opposing pitcher, several times per batter, would (from the stretch) take a step to pitch, stop, then immediately take another step and pitch. Obviously this was throwing the batters' timing way off. In my judgment this qualified as an illegal pitch (quick pitch) because the batters did not have time to reset before the actual pitch would come in. Thoughts?

Time, start over, don’t do that. 

[mwest5575]

Yeah but if he delivers a pitch before you can get him to stop I don't understand why it wouldn't be a quick pitch if in your judgment the batter wasn't set. Basically the batters would step with the pitcher but not get ready again before the pitch came (it was fast). 

[Jimurray]

13 minutes ago, mwest5575 said:

Yeah but if he delivers a pitch before you can get him to stop I don't understand why it wouldn't be a quick pitch if in your judgment the batter wasn't set. Basically the batters would step with the pitcher but not get ready again before the pitch came (it was fast). 

It probably would also be a pitch not in contact with the rubber. At that level just call a “do over”. If you think the pitcher was actually trying to QP or pitch closer than the rubber allowed then penalize him. 

[Senor Azul]

In the Little League (Majors) division and the Minors we are to call and penalize an illegal pitch only when the pitcher violates either rule 8.05(e) or 8.05(g) when there are no runners on. With runners on we penalize illegal pitches.

An ILLEGAL PITCH is (1) a pitch delivered to the batter when the pitcher does not have the pivot foot in contact with the pitcher’s plate; ...

Baseball: (2) a quick return pitch. Intermediate (50-70) Division/Junior/Senior League: An illegal pitch with runners on base is a balk. (See also definition of “Pitch.”)

A.R.—This would apply to rule 8.05(e) and 8.05(g). In all other instances of Rule 8.05 with no runners on base, no penalty is enforced. In such cases, the umpire shall call “Time” and the pitcher and batter will resume the count without reference to the pitch.

Little League rule 8.05(e) the pitcher makes a quick pitch; Umpires will judge a quick pitch as one delivered before the batter is reasonably set in the batter’s box.

NOTE: Rule 8.05(e) is an illegal pitch (Rule 2.00). Little League (Major)/ Minor League: The penalty for Rule 8.05(e), regardless of whether there are runners present or not, is a ball. This is an instance in which an illegal pitch, by Little League (Major)/Minor League definition, can occur without runners on base…

8.05(g) the pitcher makes any motion naturally associated with the pitch while not touching the pitcher’s plate;

NOTE: Rule 8.05(g) is an illegal pitch (Rule 2.00). Little League (Major)/ Minor League: The penalty for Rule 8.05(g), regardless of whether there are runners present or not, is a ball. This is an instance in which an illegal pitch, by Little League (Major)/Minor League definition, can occur without runners on base…

[mwest5575]

Well I think it worked out fine. He wasn't doing it intentionally. Just nervous and inexperienced. The first time or so he went ahead and delivered the pitch before I could say anything (I was volunteering for my son's game in street clothes and not trying to over umpire) but nobody knew what to do or said anything (plate umpire, our coach, fans, etc.). So I went over to the pitcher and told him he needed to stop doing that. I don't think he could help it. So the next time I killed it and said no pitch. So the coach came out and wanted to know what was going on. I explained it to him. I told him I would ball the quick pitches and with runners on ball the illegal pitch. So he talked to the pitcher and he tried to do better. I get the pitcher is learning and not doing it intentionally but (and probably amplified by my son being on the opposing team) the batters are learning too, and it was frustrating/disconcerting for the batters (who are also young and nervous) to have to guess whether a pitch was coming or not over and over again. The coach pulled him after the half inning. I just couldn't believe nobody else at the field was going to say anything.

So what would you do in this scenario if the pitcher stops (doesn't deliver a pitch) but does it multiple times. At some point don't you have to put a stop to it? It feels like it puts the batters at a disadvantage.