BOO and illegal bat

[ricka56]

This one is from the FB umpire page. Kind of a TWP, but maybe a good exercise on competing rule applications.

Batter with a 1-1 count less than 2 outs is found to be batting out of order with an illegal bat. How do you rule. ?

If you rule the batter out for an illegal bat, his AB has ended and the BOO is viable and can be enforced ... 2 outs. But we never get 2 outs on a BOO. Would you get the two outs or could you justify (by rule) to get only one out. And if so, who's out. Please justify your ruling. 
 

[maven]

You're right: we can't get 2 outs for a BOO. This is not substantially different from a batter who grounds out, and then the defense appeals BOO. The BOO supersedes the out made during play (or the time at bat).

[noumpere]

Agreed -- and with the addition that the bat is still removed and any additional penalties for a future illegal bat (or re-using this one) still apply.

 

if the defense wants just the bat penalty enforced, then don't bring up the BOO (assuming the illegal bat was found first).

[ALStripes17]

Agreed -- and with the addition that the bat is still removed and any additional penalties for a future illegal bat (or re-using this one) still apply.
 
if the defense wants just the bat penalty enforced, then don't bring up the BOO (assuming the illegal bat was found first).

Odds are the offense is still BOO with the next hitter so defense should just wait for the next guy to complete his AB

[kylehutson]

3 minutes ago, ALStripes17 said:

Odds are the offense is still BOO with the next hitter so defense should just wait for the next guy to complete his AB

But with that out, isn't the out-of-order batter legalized? So it should be the next guy on the lineup after the OOB batter, not the one that would be in the next spot if the correct batter were there?

[ALStripes17]

But with that out, isn't the out-of-order batter legalized? So it should be the next guy on the lineup after the OOB batter, not the one that would be in the next spot if the correct batter were there?

Yes once a pitch is thrown to the next batter then the one who was out for the illegal bat is legalized in the lineup. My point was that there was someone in the lineup that was still skipped and typically that guy will just jump back up there at some point so he doesn't miss a whole lineup go-around.

[ricka56]

24 minutes ago, noumpere said:

if the defense wants just the bat penalty enforced, then don't bring up the BOO (assuming the illegal bat was found first).

But what if you enforce the illegal bat out (BOO not yet discovered), then before the next pitch, the defense appeals BOO. 

[basejester]

2 minutes ago, ricka56 said:

But what if you enforce the illegal bat out (BOO not yet discovered), then before the next pitch, the defense appeals BOO. 

Undo the out on the improper batter and call the proper batter out.  Any other penalties for the illegal bat would stick.

 

[noumpere]

8 minutes ago, ricka56 said:

But what if you enforce the illegal bat out (BOO not yet discovered), then before the next pitch, the defense appeals BOO. 

If the play was "But what if you enforce the ground out 6-3, then before the next pitch, the defense appeals BOO." you would know the answer.  Same thing in the illegal bat scenario.

[stkjock]

at some levels - player is also EJ for the illegal bat and the HC must be gone as well (LL Majors) we had this happen in the Williamsport District Tourney last year when a player came up against us with a big barrel bat.

 

[Rich Ives]

1 hour ago, stkjock said:

at some levels - player is also EJ for the illegal bat and the HC must be gone as well (LL Majors) we had this happen in the Williamsport District Tourney last year when a player came up against us with a big barrel bat.

 

His manager didn't notice and stop him?

The ump didn't notice and stop him before he got into the box?

[stkjock]

1 minute ago, Rich Ives said:

His manager didn't notice and stop him?

The ump didn't notice and stop him before he got into the box?

he said he did yes, was on his way to the box after one or two pitches when we called him out on the bat, however, this was the second at bat for the kid as well...  our kids picked up on it the first time but did not say anything to one of the coaches.

 

I don't fault the PU as with bat rules being different in many divisions , Ump said nothing and was not aware of the consequences in tournament play.   the TD called Bristol to get a ruling  - once the player and coach were EJ'd I got to stand at first and hear some very kind words from the parents of the other team......

[Rich Ives]

6 minutes ago, VolUmp said:

Spoken like a coach who has never umpired a game in his life.

Spoken like someone who doesn't know the LL rule about preventing protests.

Would you let a catcher or batter use an illegal helmet?

 

[VolUmp]

On 3/23/2017 at 0:40 PM, Rich Ives said:

Spoken like someone who doesn't know the LL rule about preventing protests.

Would you let a catcher or batter use an illegal helmet?

Rich, your second question is stupid, and therefore I won't answer it.

If you think a good umpire is going to focus more highly on the bat than the other 23 responsibilities he has ... as to never miss an illegal bat coming in the box ... then you're sorely ignorant.  You probably aren't aware that there is actually a priority list ... written in the OBR book ... since especially in two-man, there is just no way everything can be caught.

Yes ... once in a while a good umpire is going to let an illegal bat slip by ... and your ignorance or arrogance comes out by the way you state the question.

"The ump didn't notice and stop him before he got into the box?"

No, Rich ... he didn't notice ... and the walls came crumbling down ...

[beerguy55]

Making the assumption that the batter at the plate has skipped the proper batter, as the DT coach I would let him complete the at-bat.

At which point I would appeal batting out of order, which would make the batter who missed his turn out, and then would bring the first batter back to the plate to take his proper place in the lineup.

At which point I would appeal the illegal bat.

Those would be the two easiest outs in history.

 

[kylehutson]

58 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Making the assumption that the batter at the plate has skipped the proper batter, as the DT coach I would let him complete the at-bat.

At which point I would appeal batting out of order, which would make the batter who missed his turn out, and then would bring the first batter back to the plate to take his proper place in the lineup.

At which point I would appeal the illegal bat.

Those would be the two easiest outs in history.

 

That would be assuming that it was just one batter missed, and that the same batter would come up next, still with the illegal bat. Not a bad assumption, but also not a given.

[Mudisfun]

On 3/23/2017 at 10:34 AM, Rich Ives said:

His manager didn't notice and stop him?

The ump didn't notice and stop him before he got into the box?

Rich I don't know about your area but pretty much all of us in Western Region completely inspect all bats, helmets and catchers gear prior to the 1st pitch. After inspecting (Majors and below) I will ask the kids if they have their travel ball bats also available and all of a sudden 10 more big barrel bats come out! We remove those from the dugout per rule and normally don't have any further issues. If a batter then enters the box with an illegal bat then that is 100% on the offending team... 

Why would I as the umpire, after inspecting the equipment prior to the game now be looking for illegal bats entering the box? If a kid or more likely Mom or Dad sneaks a removed bat back into the dugout why should I try and catch what should be an out for the other team before it happens? If regular season then the kid is out and the team loses a base coach for the remainder of the game on the 1st offense... if tourney play then the Manager should have been a little more vigilant about what is happening in his dugout before I eject him for this rules violation. As @stkjock says below this is what happens at tourney time...

On 3/23/2017 at 9:09 AM, stkjock said:

at some levels - player is also EJ for the illegal bat and the HC must be gone as well (LL Majors) we had this happen in the Williamsport District Tourney last year when a

 

Sorry for the thread hi-jack. 

[stkjock]

no worries @Mudisfun not even my thread...  

 

in the case I was involved with and frankly every LL game I've been involved with, I have never once seen the umpires ask the equipment question or inspect bats. 

[ricka56]

1 hour ago, Mudisfun said:

Sorry for the thread hi-jack. 

 

4 minutes ago, stkjock said:

no worries @Mudisfun not even my thread...  

That was generous of you. 

[stkjock]

@ricka56 glad to help...

 

 

good thing I don't loot... 

[Rich Ives]

On 3/24/2017 at 2:45 PM, VolUmp said:

Rich, your second question is stupid, and therefore I won't answer it.

If you think a good umpire is going to focus more highly on the bat than the other 23 responsibilities he has ... as to never miss an illegal bat coming in the box ... then you're sorely ignorant.  You probably aren't aware that there is actually a priority list ... written in the OBR book ... since especially in two-man, there is just no way everything can be caught.

Yes ... once in a while a good umpire is going to let an illegal bat slip by ... and your ignorance or arrogance comes out by the way you state the question.

"The ump didn't notice and stop him before he got into the box?"

No, Rich ... he didn't notice ... and the walls came crumbling down ...

Nice buck-passing job.  stkjock changed the subject to a LL game so I responded about LL.