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NLDS Game 5 - Harper pick off

stkjock

By stkjock
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grayhawk
grayhawk

I bothers me when people make definitive statements without definitive evidence.  Nelson said that the foot broke the plane, but there is simply no camera angle that shows it.  I'm sure it was close,

scrounge
scrounge

I don't know if it crossed the plate or not...I just think he stepped more to home than first, so i think it's a balk just based on that, but very close.

Jimurray
Jimurray

OBR, per PBUC, MiLBUM, MLBUM, any part of free foot goes past back edge of rubber. Knee can go past back edge. NCAA, entire free foot or any part of stride leg passes back plane. FED, entire

dumbdumb

dumbdumb

Posted
Posted
9 hours ago, Thunderheads said:

I'd bet $50 that Joe West would balk that ALL_DAY_LONG! :nod: 

So would Bruce Froemming from yesteryear.

And should Joe and LA get to the WS, we might just find out if Joe is at 1B or HP for this """""exact same move"""" done again """"exactly the same way"""" that we just saw on the video.

If he cleans it up some, all bets are off.

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Jimurray

Jimurray

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, dumbdumb said:

So would Bruce Froemming from yesteryear.

And should Joe and LA get to the WS, we might just find out if Joe is at 1B or HP for this """""exact same move"""" done again """"exactly the same way"""" that we just saw on the video.

If he cleans it up some, all bets are off.

So you're saying that if Joe is at HP he would balk the no step and if he is at 1B he would balk either the toe past the rubber and/or the no step?

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dumbdumb

dumbdumb

Posted
Posted
20 hours ago, Jimurray said:

So you're saying that if Joe is at HP he would balk the no step and if he is at 1B he would balk either the toe past the rubber and/or the no step?

I am just going with the step towards home for both, 1B or HP, since we do not get that great side view from 1st to see about the toe/whole foot etc. past the back edge of rubber.

But yes, if just the toe or whole foot breaks the back edge, and however the MLB rule is interpreted, I would think he would balk that also if done. Also if he considered that too much of a lean towards the plate.

Balk looks even more like a step towards home than the Buehrle balk that Ozzie and Buehrle were tossed over a couple years ago on the step/non step towards first.

Just IMHO. Does not mean I am the all seeing/all knowing either, by any means or stretch of the imagination.

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dumbdumb

dumbdumb

Posted
Posted

Here we go with a little gamesmanship.

Trying to plant a little seed on another player through the papers/public and to the umpires.

reminds me of those good ole mind games of Pat Riley and Phil Jackson, trying to work the referees before the games through the news papers, and plant that seed.

Yes sir re buddy. go baby go. Plant that seed.

 

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/206505568/joe-maddon-wants-umpires-to-watch-julio-urias/

 

 

 

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Thunderheads

Thunderheads

Posted
Posted
23 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

I searched "Urias balk" on MLB and it came up with no results.

true for 2 reasons,.... 1; see below , I was referring to Kershaw, 2; Urias only has 18 games under his belt.....

22 minutes ago, stkjock said:

I took Jeff's comment to be about Kershaw being called for a balk with similar move

stkjock is correct .....I was indeed referring to Kershaw ........

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grayhawk

grayhawk

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Thunderheads said:

true for 2 reasons,.... 1; see below , I was referring to Kershaw, 2; Urias only has 18 games under his belt.....

stkjock is correct .....I was indeed referring to Kershaw ........

Gotcha.  Yes, Kershaw has been balked for it, and he was none too happy about it.

The problem with Maddon calling attention to it is that if the umpires DO call a balk on Urias, it will appear that he influenced them.  If I am Cederstrom, I am finding all the video of Urias that I can and getting the crew all on the same page about where, exactly, the edge of that envelope is tonight.

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Mudder

Mudder

Posted
Posted

Agreed that no angle is clear to indicate if the enitre foot passes the back side of the rubber, but I don't think anyone has mentioned his lean towards the plate while stepping with his free foot towards 1B, to me this commits him to pitch. Some have a slight lean but this is too much 

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dumbdumb

dumbdumb

Posted
Posted
On 10/19/2016 at 0:17 PM, grayhawk said:

I searched "Urias balk" on MLB and it came up with no results.

will this count

not good timing to get one called.

Cone goes to 3rd and Marte reaches first on fielders choice

he picks Marte off with the move.

But then Mendez walked and uh-oh, the move did not work on Mendez. Balk. Cone scores, Mendez to 2nd.

I would bet it was called either by plate umpire Nate Tomlinson or 1b umpire clayton Hamm

 

Frisco Top of the 3rd
  • Zach Cone doubles (6) on a line drive to left fielder Brandon Dixon.
  • Luis Marte reaches on a fielder's choice, fielded by first baseman Lars Anderson. Zach Cone to 3rd.
  • With Preston Beck batting, Julio Urias picks off Luis Marte at 1st on throw to Lars Anderson.
  • Preston Beck pops out to first baseman Lars Anderson.
  • Luis Mendez walks.
  • With Lewis Brinson batting, Zach Cone scores on a balk. Luis Mendez advances to 2nd on a balk.
  • Lewis Brinson strikes out swinging.

you might also enjoy this article with some other looks- from HP of some of the moves.

many pitchers with these moves also know that from time to time they will go a little too far and get balked, just like unintentionally missing your spot with a pitch, it happens.

They don't let it bother them and then just like Steve Carlton, you say big deal and go after the batter.

And just for the record, he was called for a balk in A ball and one this year at AAA okie city. without being there for those 2 maybe he just dropped the ball or something.

But none in MLB so far.

https://theringer.com/julio-urias-dodgers-pickoff-mlb-898ac712053e#.952uu1qwj

 

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Jimurray

Jimurray

Posted
Posted
6 hours ago, dumbdumb said:

will this count

not good timing to get one called.

Cone goes to 3rd and Marte reaches first on fielders choice

he picks Marte off with the move.

But then Mendez walked and uh-oh, the move did not work on Mendez. Balk. Cone scores, Mendez to 2nd.

I would bet it was called either by plate umpire Nate Tomlinson or 1b umpire clayton Hamm

 

Frisco Top of the 3rd
  • Zach Cone doubles (6) on a line drive to left fielder Brandon Dixon.
  • Luis Marte reaches on a fielder's choice, fielded by first baseman Lars Anderson. Zach Cone to 3rd.
  • With Preston Beck batting, Julio Urias picks off Luis Marte at 1st on throw to Lars Anderson.
  • Preston Beck pops out to first baseman Lars Anderson.
  • Luis Mendez walks.
  • With Lewis Brinson batting, Zach Cone scores on a balk. Luis Mendez advances to 2nd on a balk.
  • Lewis Brinson strikes out swinging.

you might also enjoy this article with some other looks- from HP of some of the moves.

many pitchers with these moves also know that from time to time they will go a little too far and get balked, just like unintentionally missing your spot with a pitch, it happens.

They don't let it bother them and then just like Steve Carlton, you say big deal and go after the batter.

And just for the record, he was called for a balk in A ball and one this year at AAA okie city. without being there for those 2 maybe he just dropped the ball or something.

But none in MLB so far.

https://theringer.com/julio-urias-dodgers-pickoff-mlb-898ac712053e#.952uu1qwj

 

So was it a no step or toe behind the back edge of the rubber in the MiLB game?

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dumbdumb

dumbdumb

Posted
Posted
On 10/21/2016 at 11:48 PM, Jimurray said:

So was it a no step or toe behind the back edge of the rubber in the MiLB game?

Don't know obviously.

And of course I would love to know also.

Just to make it perfectly clear for the newer guys, I threw in the fact I was not there (he may have dropped the ball) and therefor would have no idea from the box scores, where you know without any doubt my info comes from? And you know without a doubt "if" there was a video out there (and there probably is but I have not found it, or an article where the reporter personally asked that question and was answered, I would provide the article if I could find it).

You have been here long enough to know that, but, for anyone new, let's just make it clear that I just try and provide the information, by video or article, "although" my guess would be a step towards home, but I will not hide a video or article showing all 3 of his balks were crossing the plane plane, just to let my personal opinion try to carry the day.

I would actually hope that the answer is that from time to time he commits both types, just to let umpires know that on this type of move, you have to be looking at 2 or more possible balks and not just any one balk move a certain pitcher may do. They are trying to cut the move as close to "not balking" as they can, and they are allowed to do this no questions asked. Just like that left foot actually stepping and gaining distance from a right-hander. Sometimes the pitcher may cut the line too fine and balk from time to time. Move on and get the batter.

It could have been either/and or the toe or the step.

It would be great if you know the umpires involved or you personally know some friends who you could call, and others can also, that could personally provide that information.

Let me know what they say it was. I kinda don't want to go through all of Okie cities games to find the AAA crew that called it, and I don't know anyone anyway.

Ok ok, I went through the games. Thank goodness it was the middle of April.

April 16th in only his 2nd or 3rd start with Okie City the home team. Nashville went on the win the game 5-0, getting 4 runs off Urias in his 5 innings of work and his first loss after an earlier win.

There could have been an argument about the balk call but the box scores do not mention arguments.

There were no ejections either, in which the box scores do carry that information. So maybe/maybe not an argument over the balk but no ejection.

Crew was Bryan Fields (HP), Clay Park (1B), and Stu Scheurwater (3B). These are the guys to seek information from personally or from a friend of a friend situation.

I also provided the names from the AA game in 2015. And no, I am not going back to the California League game and try to find the crew, slacker that I am.

I am curious. Let me know what you find out.

Nashville Top of the 1st
  • Tyler Ladendorf singles on a ground ball to shortstop Elian Herrera, deflected by third baseman Zach Walters.
  • Chad Pinder strikes out swinging.
  • With Jake Smolinski batting, Tyler Ladendorf advances to 2nd on a balk.
  • Jake Smolinski flies out to right fielder Jose Tabata.
  • Renato Nunez singles on a ground ball to left fielder James Ramsey. Tyler Ladendorf scores.
  • Max Muncy grounds out, second baseman Brandon Hicks to first baseman Rob Segedin.

dd

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dumbdumb

dumbdumb

Posted
Posted

Jimurray--you out there?

just switching from LH to RH move

I know you saw it last night.

here is a text book definition, step directly to first base move that proves you can still get the runner without all the spin moves, steps to the 45' line and whatever else moves that come up.

don't just try to pick it up at the beginning  :02-:07

Go to :40-44 for a great view of that step.

This is what the move should always be, or it is a balk. There will never be a challenge to any of the stolen base records in the current environment because No. 1 Billy Bean ball and because of the moves the pitchers are allowed to use. The rules are the way they want them and that is all well and good, but all the stolen base records will never be challenged again without tightening up the balk rule and getting rid of some/making less predominant Billy Bean ball school of thinking/analysis. 6 or 7 runs are great if they include all facets of the game IMHO. But records were made to be broken and Ricky Henderson or whoever holds the SB record is safe forever if the environment stays the same.

Same for a left hander,,,,,,, that step to first should be just like this step to first, not the 45' line, with the free foot and a left hander still has the advantage of looking right at/straight at the runner the whole time and not having to look over the shoulder and turn around to throw to the base.

Baseball can do anything they want and that is just fine, well and good. Just IMHO on the above, from a dd.

enjoy.

 

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/63817564/v1209672383/ws2016-gm3-hendricks-picks-lindor-off-after-review

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Jimurray

Jimurray

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, dumbdumb said:

Jimurray--you out there?

just switching from LH to RH move

I know you saw it last night.

here is a text book definition, step directly to first base move that proves you can still get the runner without all the spin moves, steps to the 45' line and whatever else moves that come up.

don't just try to pick it up at the beginning  :02-:07

Go to :40-44 for a great view of that step.

This is what the move should always be, or it is a balk. There will never be a challenge to any of the stolen base records in the current environment because No. 1 Billy Bean ball and because of the moves the pitchers are allowed to use. The rules are the way they want them and that is all well and good, but all the stolen base records will never be challenged again without tightening up the balk rule and getting rid of some/making less predominant Billy Bean ball school of thinking/analysis. 6 or 7 runs are great if they include all facets of the game IMHO. But records were made to be broken and Ricky Henderson or whoever holds the SB record is safe forever if the environment stays the same.

Same for a left hander,,,,,,, that step to first should be just like this step to first, not the 45' line, with the free foot and a left hander still has the advantage of looking right at/straight at the runner the whole time and not having to look over the shoulder and turn around to throw to the base.

Baseball can do anything they want and that is just fine, well and good. Just IMHO on the above, from a dd.

enjoy.

 

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/63817564/v1209672383/ws2016-gm3-hendricks-picks-lindor-off-after-review

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Rule of thumb: When a RHP is successful on a pick check for knee pop. 

If you want to start at your level reducing the LHP advantage feel free. But don't change your B position in two man to better call the foot behind the rubber as I've seen one guy do:D

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Jimurray

Jimurray

Posted
Posted
On October 29, 2016 at 0:56 PM, Jimurray said:

Rule of thumb: When a RHP is successful on a pick check for knee pop. 

If you want to start at your level reducing the LHP advantage feel free. But don't change your B position in two man to better call the foot behind the rubber as I've seen one guy do:D

@dumbdumb, you watching? WS game 7. 2nd inning pickoff, knee pop or not?  I wouldn't call it.

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