Batted ball deflected out of play

[Richvee]

Base hit down the LF line, rolling towards the wall. F7 runs over to cut it off. Ball deflects off, or is unintentionally kicked by F7 over the fence/under a tarp, etc. Had it gotten by F7 the ball would most likely kick off the wall in play.

Is this 2 bases TOP in both OBR and FED?

Does the ball have to stop rolling to be a 2 base award from the time of the deflection?  

[noumpere]

This play is two bases TOP in all codes.

 

While the ball doesn't need to stop, it needs to have slowed sufficiently that it would not reach DBT on it's own (considering only the momentum of the ball and not it's direction).  Any benefit of the doubt goes to two bases TOP.

[Richvee]

9 minutes ago, noumpere said:

This play is two bases TOP in all codes.

 

While the ball doesn't need to stop, it needs to have slowed sufficiently that it would not reach DBT on it's own (considering only the momentum of the ball and not it's direction).  Any benefit of the doubt goes to two bases TOP.

So what you're saying here is, if the ball's rolling down the LF line, and on it's own, unobstructed, would roll to the LF wall and remain in play, if it kicks off F7's shoe and OOP,  the speed on the ball was enough to cause the ball to go out of play, ....2 TOP?   

IOW- The fielder would need to give the ball extra impetus to make a call of 2 bases time of kick/deflection.  

[noumpere]

12 hours ago, Richvee said:

So what you're saying here is, if the ball's rolling down the LF line, and on it's own, unobstructed, would roll to the LF wall and remain in play, if it kicks off F7's shoe and OOP,  the speed on the ball was enough to cause the ball to go out of play, ....2 TOP?   

IOW- The fielder would need to give the ball extra impetus to make a call of 2 bases time of kick/deflection.  

Exactly.  Your last sentence is nearly identical to the wording in the FED book, iirc.

[Ump29]

This play is two bases TOP in all codes.  ??

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, Ump29 said:

This play is two bases TOP in all codes.  ??

See the second post.

[Richvee]

I received a little more info on the play someone asked me about that made me post this question. 

 

Clean line drive hit down the LF line. F7 moving towards the line gloves the ball, the ball falls out of his glove and then gets kicked out of play. F7 stopped the momentum of the batted ball, then it was kicked. 

I'd say that's 2 bases time of kick?

 

[Rich Ives]

32 minutes ago, Richvee said:

I received a little more info on the play someone asked me about that made me post this question. 

 

Clean line drive hit down the LF line. F7 moving towards the line gloves the ball, the ball falls out of his glove and then gets kicked out of play. F7 stopped the momentum of the batted ball, then it was kicked. 

I'd say that's 2 bases time of kick?

 

I think so.

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, Richvee said:

I received a little more info on the play someone asked me about that made me post this question. 

 

Clean line drive hit down the LF line. F7 moving towards the line gloves the ball, the ball falls out of his glove and then gets kicked out of play. F7 stopped the momentum of the batted ball, then it was kicked. 

I'd say that's 2 bases time of kick?

 

The perils of answering a fanboy/ vested interest question. Tell me you qualified any answer you gave or have not yet gave one. You are entitled to a "Miranda" warning.

[Richvee]

7 hours ago, Jimurray said:

The perils of answering a fanboy/ vested interest question. Tell me you qualified any answer you gave or have not yet gave one. You are entitled to a "Miranda" warning.

Let's just say it was a big game. "a play someone asked me about" isn't really true. It's play that's been discussed at the past 4 or five games I've been to with fellow umpires, players, coaches. All the conversations have been rules talk on what constitutes 2 bases TOP or TOK. Tuesday evening,the person I was discussing it with was actually at the game,and described the play as I stated above. Yes, I did qualify my answer to him as , "If that's exactly what happened" and "hard to say for sure without seeing it but here's the two options."

[Senor Azul]

A list summarizing the approved rulings of awards when a ball is deflected out of play can be found in both the PBUC manual and the MLBUM. In the 2014 PBUC the list appears in section 6.8 on pages 58-59. In the 2015 MLBUM the list is found under paragraph 17 on pages 12-14. Both state the following: 

“If a fair ball not in flight is deflected by a fielder and then goes out of play, the award is two bases from the time of the pitch.

“If a fielder has complete possession of a batted or thrown ball and subsequently deflects or kicks the ball out of play, the award is two bases from the position of the runner(s) at the time the ball was kicked or deflected.”

[Richvee]

8 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

A list summarizing the approved rulings of awards when a ball is deflected out of play can be found in both the PBUC manual and the MLBUM. In the 2014 PBUC the list appears in section 6.8 on pages 58-59. In the 2015 MLBUM the list is found under paragraph 17 on pages 12-14. Both state the following: 

 

“If a fair ball not in flight is deflected by a fielder and then goes out of play, the award is two bases from the time of the pitch.

 

“If a fielder has complete possession of a batted or thrown ball and subsequently deflects or kicks the ball out of play, the award is two bases from the position of the runner(s) at the time the ball was kicked or deflected.”

 

Interesting. "Complete possession" makes it sound like you would need voluntary release to get 2 TOK. The way I envision this play, with all the info I've gathered, is a line drive, F7 gloves it on a couple hops, ball falls out of his glove near his feet and is subsequently kicked OOP. 

Is the definition of "complete possession" = definition of "legal catch"????

[maven]

8 hours ago, Richvee said:

Is the definition of "complete possession" = definition of "legal catch"????

Of course not, Rich. A catch is defined in terms of a ball in flight!

I would say that "complete possession" means the same as "secure possession in hand or glove." But I'd wager it's more like TAG than CATCH: if the fielder involuntarily releases it after having secure possession in his glove, and the ball goes out of play, it sounds as if that would satisfy the requirements for a TOT award.

[MooseLoop]

On 6/16/2016 at 11:11 AM, Senor Azul said:

A list summarizing the approved rulings of awards when a ball is deflected out of play can be found in both the PBUC manual and the MLBUM. In the 2014 PBUC the list appears in section 6.8 on pages 58-59. In the 2015 MLBUM the list is found under paragraph 17 on pages 12-14. Both state the following: 

 

“If a fair ball not in flight is deflected by a fielder and then goes out of play, the award is two bases from the time of the pitch.

 

“If a fielder has complete possession of a batted or thrown ball and subsequently deflects or kicks the ball out of play, the award is two bases from the position of the runner(s) at the time the ball was kicked or deflected.”

 

Say you are on an open field where the ground rules specified that the extension of the backstop fence marks dead ball territory down both foul lines.  Maybe the DBT line is even chalked.  R1.  B2 hits a slicing ground ball down the left field line.  As F7 catches up to the ball, R1 is almost to third and will certainly cross the plate before a throw could get there.  

The ball, if left untouched, would roll into DBT.  F7 (a) lets the ball roll dead, like an F5 letting a bunt roll foul, even though he could easily have fielded the ball; (b) in the process of trying to field the ball, unintentionally deflects it into DBT; or (c) intentionally slaps the ball into DBT.

Or the ball, if left untouched, would have stopped in LBT.  F7, without ever having "complete possession", (d) unintentionally provides the impetus to deflect the ball into dead ball territory; or (e) intentionally deflects the ball into DBT.

Award two bases from time of pitch?

[noumpere]

19 minutes ago, MooseLoop said:

Say you are on an open field where the ground rules specified that the extension of the backstop fence marks dead ball territory down both foul lines.  Maybe the DBT line is even chalked.  R1.  B2 hits a slicing ground ball down the left field line.  As F7 catches up to the ball, R1 is almost to third and will certainly cross the plate before a throw could get there.  

The ball, if left untouched, would roll into DBT.  F7 (a) lets the ball roll dead, like an F5 letting a bunt roll foul, even though he could easily have fielded the ball; (b) in the process of trying to field the ball, unintentionally deflects it into DBT; or (c) intentionally slaps the ball into DBT.

Or the ball, if left untouched, would have stopped in LBT.  F7, without ever having "complete possession", (d) unintentionally provides the impetus to deflect the ball into dead ball territory; or (e) intentionally deflects the ball into DBT.

Award two bases from time of pitch?

(a) TOP; (b) TOP; (C) TOT

(d) TOT; (e) TOT

for (c) and (d) I am assuming that means that even if the ball "hit a rock and made an immediate left turn" the ball would NOT reach DBT.  If that assumption is NOT true (that is, the ball would reach DBT if it changed directions), then see the answers to (b) and (c).

[MooseLoop]

On 6/17/2016 at 0:12 PM, noumpere said:

(a) TOP; (b) TOP; (C) TOT

(d) TOT; (e) TOT

for (c) and (d) I am assuming that means that even if the ball "hit a rock and made an immediate left turn" the ball would NOT reach DBT.  If that assumption is NOT true (that is, the ball would reach DBT if it changed directions), then see the answers to (b) and (c).

Aha.  If a moving batted ball has enough momentum to make it to DBT even though it's not going in that direction, if the direction is unintentionally changed by a rock or a glove or a foot and the ball then goes into DBT, the award is still from time of pitch.  But if the glove or the foot not only changes the direction, but also adds the needed momentum or impetus to reach DBT, then the award is time of throw (deflection). And any intentional deflection will be time of throw (deflection).

So in my scenario (b), where R1 is rounding third and would have scored but F7 was lucky enough to have unintentionally deflected the ball into DBT instead of cleanly fielding it in LBT, the defense benefits from its misplay.  I presume we give the offense the benefit of doubt.

[noumpere]

I think the "expected" play in all of these is two bases TOP.  SO, that's where I'd put the benefit of the doubt, even in your scenario (b).  Sometimes a "ground rule double" works in favor of the offense; sometimes it works in favor of the defense.  That's life (and baseball).