2nd or 3rd

[gymcoch]

LL- R1, Pitch gets past F2 and rolls out of play. Does R1 get 2B or 3B? Is it TOP and therefore 2B? Does it matter if R1 took off before ball rolled out of play and therefore 3B?

Thanks in advance.

[Rich Ives]

5 minutes ago, gymcoch said:

LL- R1, Pitch gets past F2 and rolls out of play. Does R1 get 2B or 3B? Is it TOP and therefore 2B? Does it matter if R1 took off before ball rolled out of play and therefore 3B?

Thanks in advance.

2B.

7.05-- Each runner including the batter-runner may, without liability to be put out, advance -

(h) One base, if a ball, pitched to the batter, or thrown by the pitcher from the position on the pitcher’s plate to a base to catch a runner goes into a stand or a bench, or over or through a field fence or backstop. The ball is dead;

[gymcoch]

Rich, I read this as well. But say R1 takes off after ball gets past F2 and he is almost to 2B. Is it still 1 base from time of pitch? What if he had reaches 2B before it rolled out of play?

[Richvee]

Wild pitch deflecting out of play is one base TOP. Second base is the award. Now if the pitch stops rolling, and a fielder deflects the ball out of play (fielder's added impetus causes the ball to go out of play)) now we have 2 bases from time of deflection.

[johnpatrick]

2 hours ago, Richvee said:

Wild pitch deflecting out of play is one base TOP. Second base is the award. Now if the pitch stops rolling, and a fielder deflects the ball out of play (fielder's added impetus causes the ball to go out of play)) now we have 2 bases from time of deflection.

OBR. Actually, assuming the kick or deflection is unintentional (and it always is) it doesn't matter if the ball would have stopped on the playing field or gone out on it's own:

PBUC 6.8 "This ruling applies without regard to whether or not the ball would have gone out of play had it not been kicked or deflected..."

Two bases TOP.  The only time it would be two bases from time of deflection would be if intentional.  I've never seen it and I doubt if anyone else has either

[Rich Ives]

3 hours ago, gymcoch said:

Rich, I read this as well. But say R1 takes off after ball gets past F2 and he is almost to 2B. Is it still 1 base from time of pitch? What if he had reaches 2B before it rolled out of play?

Base award is TOP.  Same logic as a "ground rule" double. Doesn't matter where the runner was as the event unfolded.

[Richvee]

14 hours ago, johnpatrick said:

OBR. Actually, assuming the kick or deflection is unintentional (and it always is) it doesn't matter if the ball would have stopped on the playing field or gone out on it's own:

PBUC 6.8 "This ruling applies without regard to whether or not the ball would have gone out of play had it not been kicked or deflected..."

Two bases TOP.  The only time it would be two bases from time of deflection would be if intentional.  I've never seen it and I doubt if anyone else has either

Good catch. OBR and FED differ on this.  As you have said, OBR is two bases TOP when the fielder deflects the ball OOP.  If the ball would have gone out without the deflection is irrelevant. Intent only changes time of award. 

 FED only awards two bases, (time of deflection) if the fielder adds the impetus . If the umpire thinks the ball would have gone OOP even without the fielder's deflection, it's one base TOP. Intent is irrelevant. 

I know the OP is LL so it's OBR based, but it's always good to point out the OBR/FED differences when applicable. 

 

We've strayed from the OP though. The OP is ONE base. There is no  deflection after the pitch gets by F2 in the OP.  

[Stk004]

I just want to clarify,

It's only 2 bases TOP if there is a second deflecton that puts the ball out of play, right? Say the pitch comes in and hits F2 on the shin guard or something and goes out of play. That'd be 1 base TOP? But say F2 chases a passed ball and accidently kicks it out of play, then it's 2 bases TOP? OBR. 

[MadMax]

1 hour ago, Stk004 said:

I just want to clarify,

It's only 2 bases TOP if there is a second deflecton that puts the ball out of play, right? Say the pitch comes in and hits F2 on the shin guard or something and goes out of play. That'd be 1 base TOP? But say F2 chases a passed ball and accidently kicks it out of play, then it's 2 bases TOP? OBR. 

Based on what you've proposed, I believe it's still 1 base TOP because the F2, while making a play on that ball, never actually secured possession of the ball, thus, it is still a pitch. Now if he was to chase it down, barehand it, and throw it towards a teammate covering a base, and airmails it into DBT (or, if with R3 approaching Home Plate while F1 tries to cover, as what happens many many many times in amateur ball, and F1 bungles it and it rolls into a dugout DB zone), it is now a second play, and the penalties/awards are TOT.

So say we have bases loaded (R1, R2, R3) and F1 lawn-bowls one that comes to rest at one of those pathetic backstops with a curl at its base. F2 goes to grab it, and with his eyes towards the plate, knocks it under the backstop. 1 base TOP, R3 scores, R2->3B, R1->2B. Same scenario as before, but his time, F1 spikes one, F2 retrieves it from the backstop and underhands it towards F1 covering the plate. R1 and R2 weren't even moving, and R3 is only half-way down the line, testing the action. F1 fumbles it and the ball rolls into the DBT at the mouth of the dugout (it was deemed DBT in the ground rules). "Time!" and R3 and R2 score, and R1->3B.

[noumpere]

17 minutes ago, MadMax said:

Based on what you've proposed, I believe it's still 1 base TOP because the F2, while making a play on that ball, never actually secured possession of the ball, thus, it is still a pitch.

 

That's not correct.

 

OBR:  Pitch deflects off catcher and goes OOP:  1 base TOP.

Pitch deflects off catcher, and catcher (or anyone else) UNINTENTIONALLY hits the ball and it now goes OOP:  2 bases TOP. (It's "compromise" between the one base of a pitch and the TOT provisions of most such awards)  (This is Stk004's play.  See 5.06(b)(40(H) AR)

Pitch deflects off catcher, and catcher INTENTIONALLY hits the ball and it now goes OOP:  2 bases TOT

[Stk004]

1 minute ago, noumpere said:

That's not correct.

 

OBR:  Pitch deflects off catcher and goes OOP:  1 base TOP.

Pitch deflects off catcher, and catcher (or anyone else) UNINTENTIONALLY hits the ball and it now goes OOP:  2 bases TOP. (It's "compromise" between the one base of a pitch and the TOT provisions of most such awards)  (This is Stk004's play.  See 5.06(b)(40(H) AR)

Pitch deflects off catcher, and catcher INTENTIONALLY hits the ball and it now goes OOP:  2 bases TOT

So if F2 went to scoop up a passed ball with his mitt and knocked it out of play, now it's 2 bases TOT. Versus if he was chasing it and kicked it (accidental in judgement) it's 2 bases TOP. 

[noumpere]

Just now, Stk004 said:

So if F2 went to scoop up a passed ball with his mitt and knocked it out of play, now it's 2 bases TOT. Versus if he was chasing it and kicked it (accidental in judgement) it's 2 bases TOP. 

NO.  Both the plays you describe here at 2 bases TOP.

[Stk004]

5 minutes ago, noumpere said:

That's not correct.

 

OBR:  Pitch deflects off catcher and goes OOP:  1 base TOP.

Pitch deflects off catcher, and catcher (or anyone else) UNINTENTIONALLY hits the ball and it now goes OOP:  2 bases TOP. (It's "compromise" between the one base of a pitch and the TOT provisions of most such awards)  (This is Stk004's play.  See 5.06(b)(40(H) AR)

Pitch deflects off catcher, and catcher INTENTIONALLY hits the ball and it now goes OOP:  2 bases TOT

Attempting to scoop up the ball isn't intentional? 

[noumpere]

4 minutes ago, Stk004 said:

Attempting to scoop up the ball isn't intentional? 

It's not an intentional deflection OOP.  This is different from the "intentional INT by a person authorized to be on the field"

[Stk004]

2 minutes ago, noumpere said:

It's not an intentional deflection OOP.  This is different from the "intentional INT by a person authorized to be on the field"

So, in the proposed scenarios, unless F2 INTENTIONALLY DEFLECTS THE BALL OUT OF PLAY, it's 2 bases TOP? 

[noumpere]

52 minutes ago, Stk004 said:

So, in the proposed scenarios, unless F2 INTENTIONALLY DEFLECTS THE BALL OUT OF PLAY, it's 2 bases TOP? 

sigh.  yes.