Coach

[Guest Coach Josh]

This happened in my son's high school JV game today and I have not seen this play go down this way before. 

Situation: Bases loaded one out. Pop up to shortstop. Umpire declares infield fly in effect. Runner on 2nd base takes off for third while ball is still in the air. Runners on 1st and 3rd stay put. Ball is caught by shortstop. Runner retreats back to second. Ball is thrown by shortstop to 2nd baseman covering bag well ahead of retreating runner. 2nd baseman catches throw and steps on bag well ahead of retreating runner on way back to bag. No tag is applied to runner. Ball is thrown back to pitcher. Umpire rules retreating runner is safe because no tag was applied to runner. 

Question: Should the retreating runner have been called out? 

My Two Cent Opinion: I understand from both my own playing and coaching experience (and reading up on the infield fly rule after the game) that when an infield fly rule is called in effect that the batter is declared out, runners are no longer forced, runners may advance or tag up at their own risk but must retreat to the bag if ball is caught just like with any other ball caught in the air. And since again they are not forced they must be physically tagged out when advancing. But if the ball is caught and they are in the act of retreating (having jumped the gun and failed to tag up) isn't the defense only required to step on the bag behind the retreating runner just like with any other caught ball where the runner misreads the play and advances prematurely? This distinction seems to be tough to track down in the rule book and I can't find any language that addresses this scenario. Any advice would be appreciated. My take on this is that since the runner failed to tag up he should have been declared out after the ball was caught and thrown back to 2nd well ahead of his retreat and slide back into the bag. But I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time. 

Thanks for any advice. . 

[Guest Coach Josh]

This happened in my son's high school JV game today and I have not seen this play go down this way before. 

Situation: Bases loaded one out. Pop up to shortstop. Umpire declares infield fly in effect. Runner on 2nd base takes off for third while ball is still in the air. Runners on 1st and 3rd stay put. Ball is caught by shortstop. Runner retreats back to second. Ball is thrown by shortstop to 2nd baseman covering bag well ahead of retreating runner. 2nd baseman catches throw and steps on bag well ahead of retreating runner on way back to bag. No tag is applied to runner. Ball is thrown back to pitcher. Umpire rules retreating runner is safe because no tag was applied to runner. 

Question: Should the retreating runner have been called out? 

My Two Cent Opinion: I understand from both my own playing and coaching experience (and reading up on the infield fly rule after the game) that when an infield fly rule is called in effect that the batter is declared out, runners are no longer forced, runners may advance or tag up at their own risk but must retreat to the bag if ball is caught just like with any other ball caught in the air. And since again they are not forced they must be physically tagged out when advancing. But if the ball is caught and they are in the act of retreating (having jumped the gun and failed to tag up) isn't the defense only required to step on the bag behind the retreating runner just like with any other caught ball where the runner misreads the play and advances prematurely? This distinction seems to be tough to track down in the rule book and I can't find any language that addresses this scenario. Any advice would be appreciated. My take on this is that since the runner failed to tag up he should have been declared out after the ball was caught and thrown back to 2nd well ahead of his retreat and slide back into the bag. But I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time. 

Thanks for any advice. . 

[Rich Ives]

2 minutes ago, Guest Coach Josh said:

This happened in my son's high school JV game today and I have not seen this play go down this way before. 

Situation: Bases loaded one out. Pop up to shortstop. Umpire declares infield fly in effect. Runner on 2nd base takes off for third while ball is still in the air. Runners on 1st and 3rd stay put. Ball is caught by shortstop. Runner retreats back to second. Ball is thrown by shortstop to 2nd baseman covering bag well ahead of retreating runner. 2nd baseman catches throw and steps on bag well ahead of retreating runner on way back to bag. No tag is applied to runner. Ball is thrown back to pitcher. Umpire rules retreating runner is safe because no tag was applied to runner. 

Question: Should the retreating runner have been called out? 

My Two Cent Opinion: I understand from both my own playing and coaching experience (and reading up on the infield fly rule after the game) that when an infield fly rule is called in effect that the batter is declared out, runners are no longer forced, runners may advance or tag up at their own risk but must retreat to the bag if ball is caught just like with any other ball caught in the air. And since again they are not forced they must be physically tagged out when advancing. But if the ball is caught and they are in the act of retreating (having jumped the gun and failed to tag up) isn't the defense only required to step on the bag behind the retreating runner just like with any other caught ball where the runner misreads the play and advances prematurely? This distinction seems to be tough to track down in the rule book and I can't find any language that addresses this scenario. Any advice would be appreciated. My take on this is that since the runner failed to tag up he should have been declared out after the ball was caught and thrown back to 2nd well ahead of his retreat and slide back into the bag. But I could be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time. 

Thanks for any advice. . 

Correct.

[Richvee]

And since again they are not forced they must be physically tagged out when advancing. But if the ball is caught and they are in the act of retreating (having jumped the gun and failed to tag up) isn't the defense only required to step on the bag behind the retreating runner just like with any other caught ball where the runner misreads the play and advances prematurely?

 

Exactly. R2 left early, and throwing to 2nd is the appeal for leaving the base early on a caught fly ball. Should have been a double play. Batter out,R2 out.

[maven]

It has nothing to do with advancing or retreating.

The runner must retouch his base ("tag up") on any caught fly ball or be liable to an appeal. When the defense threw to 2B, they appealed R2's failure to retouch. A live-ball appeal can be made by tagging the base or the runner.

[Guest Coach Josh]

Richvee thank you for clarifying. That's what I thought but didn't want to make a fuss during the game or be an overly vocal parent behind the backstop. To be honest both coaches were unsure on the ruling but the plate umpire was pretty convinced he had it right. If I see him again I will politely let him know he got it wrong. Thanks again. 

[Guest Coach Josh]

maven... thanks. So bottom line is the runner failed to tag up on a caught fly ball. The declaration of infield fly rule being in effect has no bearing on this fact. My question about the retreating vs. advancing runner was curiosity based on the explanation and wording from the umpire on the field after the play. The umpire on the field mistakenly applied the "force is off" concept to the retreating runner when as you described any runner who fails to tag on a caught fly ball is subject to appeal. Thanks again. Just fishing for the most complete explanation I can find so I can have a qualified conversation with the umpire in question next time I see him at a game. He is clearly misinformed on the application of this rule. 

[ALStripes17]

maven... thanks. So bottom line is the runner failed to tag up on a caught fly ball. The declaration of infield fly rule being in effect has no bearing on this fact. My question about the retreating vs. advancing runner was curiosity based on the explanation and wording from the umpire on the field after the play. The umpire on the field mistakenly applied the "force is off" concept to the retreating runner when as you described any runner who fails to tag on a caught fly ball is subject to appeal. Thanks again. Just fishing for the most complete explanation I can find so I can have a qualified conversation with the umpire in question next time I see him at a game. He is clearly misinformed on the application of this rule. 

Unless you have some sort of established relationship with this umpire, I advise you not to confront him. Go to the league director or find a way to get in touch with the assigner instead. No offense, but fans and coaches don't garner much respect in regards to rules and interpretations. It would fall on deaf ears

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[Guest Coach Josh]

ALStripes thanks I totally agree on your point 200%. I would never confront any umpire known or unknown during or after a game. I have been coaching youth teams at the local fields for a number of years and have developed a friendly relationship with many of the umpires. Some of them are also fellow baseball parents and have kids who play in the same league(s) as my own son. We have these kinds of friendly rules interpretation conversations on occasion and it is never confrontational. I always present any question from the perspective of a coach seeking wisdom and clarification from a more qualified source so that moving forward there will be improved clarity should the situation occur again on the field. Thanks everyone for the input this is a great resource website and I appreciate the time and explanations. 

[noumpere]

2 hours ago, Guest Coach Josh said:

 The declaration of infield fly rule being in effect has no bearing on this fact.

That's the key point.  It's just like any other fly ball except the batter is automatically out.

If the play had been R2, R3 only and  NOT an infield fly rule situation, the umpire would (I would hope) have recognized the appeal and ruled correctly.  He needs to do the same here.

[ZebraStripes]

If everything was as you described, R2 is required to return to 2nd base and can be put out on the appeal as was done on the play.  

[Guest Coach Josh]

2 hours ago, noumpere said:

That's the key point.  It's just like any other fly ball except the batter is automatically out.

If the play had been R2, R3 only and  NOT an infield fly rule situation, the umpire would (I would hope) have recognized the appeal and ruled correctly.  He needs to do the same here.

Thanks noumpere. So just to summarize and get back to what the umpire said (mistakenly) at the time about "runners are not forced" the only application of this element of the infield fly rule (using yesterdays bases loaded/infield fly/batter out play as an example) would have been if one or more of the runners decided to tag up and advance after the catch. In this case since the force is in fact removed the defense would be required to apply a tag to advancing runners vs. a base. That makes perfect sense and maybe helps shed some light on the source of confusion and missed call yesterday on the field. I guess it is possible that the umpire was mistakenly thinking of this scenario when he made the incorrect ruling. But since the runner in question left the bag prematurely before the catch none of this applies. He is just a runner who left to early and that's the end of the story. 

 

Thanks again for all the helpful input. You think you understand the rules until something new happens that you have never seen before.

"That's baseball Susan."

[LMSANS]

I merged the duplicate posts.