botched tag

[JHSump]

On a tag at any base how much "benefit of the doubt" do you give the defense if the ball is clearly there in plenty of time, the fielder is balanced, waiting, and only has to tag the runner, but he doesn't get the tag down in the dirt so the sliding runner is definitively out? I see this so often at the younger age levels. They are not taught how to tag a sliding runner. Now, some times you just have to call the runner safe (he definitely slid under the tag). Other times, it's not so obvious. Which way do you lean in calling those? And why?

[conbo61]

Call it like you see it.

I had that happen to me three times on steals in one game at the Junior Legion Level.  F6 reached OUT to tag the sliding running and the runner was under and on the bag in each instance.  The call was safe.  Later in the game the DT's first base coach asked (politely) what I saw.  I explained that the SS was reaching and the runner was going under.  Have your infielders drop the glove straight down and the runner will slide into the tag.

Guess what? Next inning, F6 drops the glove, BANG, we have the out.

[LittleBlue]

As long as the fielder doesn't butcher the tag, I'm grabbing the out, especially at the lower levels where the plays aren't made so easily. JV and above I want to see a tag because they should know how to get the glove down and I'm not rewarding them for not knowing how to tag even if the optic is bad.

[noumpere]

24 minutes ago, conbo61 said:

Call it like you see it.

 

I agree you should call it like you see it, but you should also only look for what you need to look for.  Don't be a plumber and go looking for s***.

 

And, yes, in MLB (and some D1) replay has changed this.  It hasn't changed at the levels most of us do.

[taa71458]

These plays are the worse. Lose/lose. Drives me crazy. Ball beats the runner but they let the runner come to them versus going to the runner. One way or another through no fault of your own someone is going to be pissed, whether you call out or safe. 

 

Had ad it happen to the same F4 twice in two innings. Thankfully coach agreed on my call that he didn't apply the tag until R1 was already on base. Coach came out during a pitching change and we explained to the kid what he was doing wrong. I'm happy to work with coaches and players on what they're doing to not get the out call.

[Rich Ives]

Call what it is. The "expected call" only rewards a failure by the defense. 

ANd cameras re everywhere these days.

[FleasOf1000Camels]

Honestly don't know why there's any question here.

Did defender tag runner before runner got to the bag or not?

Did defender maintain possession of ball throughout the play?

If answer to BOTH is YES, runner is OUT.

If answer to EITHER is NO, runner is SAFE.

[Stk004]

3 hours ago, FleasOf1000Camels said:

Honestly don't know why there's any question here.

Did defender tag runner before runner got to the bag or not?

Did defender maintain possession of ball throughout the play?

If answer to BOTH is YES, runner is OUT.

If answer to EITHER is NO, runner is SAFE.

Yes. 

I strive to call the game as I see it, especially on these plays. But if it's REALLY close and the ball beat him by a mile, he's out. 

[kstrunk]

I call these as I see them and 'sell' them when necessary, indicating why by tapping my hip if the tag was too late or too high, saying 'tag was high', or 'he's under the tag'. Not sure if this is proper, but it seems to be effective in sparing me crap from coaches and spectators. 

[Rich Ives]

3 hours ago, taa71458 said:

 but they let the runner come to them versus going to the runner.

As it should be. Put the glove down by the base and let the runner slide into the tag.

[Stk004]

This JUST happened in the Mariners Angels game. Aoki with a triple! 

[ricka56]

The benefit of the doubt depends on the level I have that day. At lower level where outs are precious, I give a lot of benefit. But even at HS varsity, unless the fielder makes it look obviously bad, I'm probably getting an out. 

And if someone video the runner narrowly touching before the tag, I could care less. 

[JHSump]

10 hours ago, Stk004 said:

This JUST happened in the Mariners Angels game. Aoki with a triple! 

I just looked at that triple by Aoki. That's not the sort of thing I am referring to. The ball and runner arrived at almost the same moment. Tag was high (on his butt, maybe I only saw the real-speed play). I'm referring to when a kid --- who should be taught better or know better --- fails to get the tag in the dirt in front of the sliding running, when the ball arrives in plenty of time. Sometimes the kid just fails to tag the runner before he reaches the base (well, worry, he's safe). Sometimes the kid makes it look much closer than it should have been or the call is not obvious (so which way do you lean in that case?).

[RichMSN]

If I have a play where I'd have to be really lucky to guess whether the tag got the runner or not, then I'm going to go with the rules of thumb -- ball beat runner, glove down, etc.

But if I see a late or missed tag, I'm calling the runner safe 100% of the time.  If I see a tag before the runner reaches the bag, I'm calling the runner out.

I'm coaching my daughter's team right now -- a 10U team comprised of 10 and 11 year olds who don't always do the right things.  We lost 6-5 last week in an elimination game in bracket play and had a runner thrown out at the plate late in the game (tying run) on a play where the throw beat the runner, the tag was late and botched -- placed on the waist of my runner as she slid across the plate feet first.  The umpire called her out -- he was the only person in the park that thought she was out.  Or did he subscribe to this stupid mentality of "the game needs an out" or "grab any out you can" and just call her out cause she "should've been out."

I gotta tell you, I was pissed at everyone after that play.  At my 3B coach who sent girls he shouldn't have (I know, I could coach third myself).

I didn't come out.  I knew there was no point.  I yelled down to my coach, "you'd better not send any more runners -- if it's even reasonably close, he's calling her out."  And you're damned right that was 100% intended for the plate umpire.

I'm not even sure what "at lower levels when outs are precious" means in this context.  I should sit back and accept what happened because the umpire is unhappy outs aren't coming fast enough?

[BCBrad]

Call them as you see them. 

I had a play like this and called, like @kstrunk said, "Safe... You missed him" out loud. No argument about play from either side. 

When we live in a society that demonizes sports officials, we don't need to be throwing fuel on the fire by calling what we think people want us to call. It undermines the integrity of the game, and our integrity to be fair and impartial.

Bottom line for me, if I call what I saw, I can live with it because I did my best and no one can question it. When you start calling a game to appease the peanut gallery, you will eventually find it hard to feel good about yourself. It will be the #1 reason you will leave officiating. 

[Kevin_K]

I'm not smart enough to quickly calculate the situation in my head before making my call.

I simply go with what I see. Sometimes the runner makes a great play and looks out to everyone but me because I saw him not get tagged as he slid to the outfield side of the bag and the fielder butchered the tag. Sometimes the runner beats the ball and doesn't get the bag and everyone else thinks he should be safe but I see the tag on him and he isn't in contact with the base.

Keep it simple. Call it as you see it.

[YCBUIC]

Normal game situation call what I see, if they are under the tag ,safe. If it's a blow out and late innings and losing team can't get an out, bang'em.

[stl_ump]

On 5/13/2016 at 1:05 PM, kstrunk said:

I call these as I see them and 'sell' them when necessary, indicating why by tapping my hip if the tag was too late or too high, saying 'tag was high', or 'he's under the tag'. Not sure if this is proper, but it seems to be effective in sparing me crap from coaches and spectators. 

Same here... I'm calling safe and almost in the same breath "UNDER THE TAG".  Very rarely do I get any major blowback after a call like this.