Heaters in the dugouts

[urout17]

Last Saturday morning we started a HS varsity game but did not complete it due to weather conditions.  The wind and eventual snow were too brutal but we tried to get it in.  The question I have is that we noticed the home team has professionally installed heaters in the ceiling of their dugout yet none in the visitors, nor were any space heaters provided for the visitors.  I understand this can be considered home field advantage.  My partner and I talked it over and thought this goes against the sportsmanship of the game at the HS level which we go over with each HC prior to the start of every game so we had them turn them off.  The HC did so without incident but we were wondering what the ruling, if any, would there be regarding this and neither one of us could think of one other than sportsmanship.  And they weren't using the heaters to warm their bats in case anyone was wondering.  I don't believe we were over officiating just trying to maintain the integrity of the game at this level. I understand at the college and pro levels this would be a different story.

I look forward to everyone's comments,

Thanks.
 

[maineump]

I would say you handled it OK. Maybe you can work it out pre-game, but what if the home team had said no, what could you have done then? Does this fall into the unsportsmanship rule as it is in the book?

I don't think that the heaters in dugouts has anything to do with us as umpires (other than the obvious bat rule). It is between the teams to work out. There are many other things that can make home field advantage, but both teams are in the field without heat.

We used to have warm team jackets, hand warmers and knit hats for cold days on the bench. They are in HS, they should know how to dress warm.

How do other sports handle this? Such as heaters/fans in football?

[ElkOil]

This isn't an issue where I am, but it seems to me I wouldn't have taken a stance on it. What happens in the dugout, unless the players are actively creating a problem for the other team, isn't much of my business.  As @maineump said, they're all on the same field when they're out of the dugout.

But let me ask you this. In order for you to believe this was unsportsman-like, how did it (or how could it have) adversely affect the game and give one team an unfair advantage? If one team brought warm jackets and the other didn't, would you disallow them from wearing them?  If it were a hot day and one dugout had a water cooler in it and the other didn't, would you disallow them from drinking out of it?

[scrounge]

Unless they put the bats near the heaters, i don't care one bit who has what in their dugout (except to the extent i need to hang out between innings - then I care).

Visiting team has a beef? Take it up with the conference/AD. This is not an umpire issue.

[urout17]

10 minutes ago, ElkOil said:

This isn't an issue where I am, but it seems to me I wouldn't have taken a stance on it. What happens in the dugout, unless the players are actively creating a problem for the other team, isn't much of my business.  As @maineump said, they're all on the same field when they're out of the dugout.

But let me ask you this. In order for you to believe this was unsportsman-like, how did it (or how could it have) adversely affect the game and give one team an unfair advantage? If one team brought warm jackets and the other didn't, would you disallow them from wearing them?  If it were a hot day and one dugout had a water cooler in it and the other didn't, would you disallow them from drinking out of it?

I think bringing warm weather gear to your game is not the issue.  You know what the weather conditions are probably going to be before you leave.  In our area water is always provided in both dugouts so that is not an issue.  You really don't believe having heaters (or blowing ac's depending where you live) is not an advantage?  Like I said in my OP, I'm talking about a HS game where sportsmanship is stressed.  I have no problem with what you suggest for college and higher.  I'm just interested in what everyone thinks so I really appreciate your input.

[ElkOil]

2 minutes ago, urout17 said:

You really don't believe having heaters (or blowing ac's depending where you live) is not an advantage?

It is insofar as the dugout is more comfy.  But no, I don't believe it would translate to an advantage on the field. I have no science to back that up, it's just that I wouldn't concern myself with something like that.

[urout17]

1 minute ago, ElkOil said:

It is insofar as the dugout is more comfy.  But no, I don't believe it would translate to an advantage on the field. I have no science to back that up, it's just that I wouldn't concern myself with something like that.

Fair enough.

[noumpere]

You should ask the IL association.  I personally wouldn't care about the issue.

[urout17]

I did just for the hell of it.

[umpstu]

31 minutes ago, urout17 said:

I think bringing warm weather gear to your game is not the issue.  You know what the weather conditions are probably going to be before you leave.  In our area water is always provided in both dugouts so that is not an issue.  You really don't believe having heaters (or blowing ac's depending where you live) is not an advantage?  Like I said in my OP, I'm talking about a HS game where sportsmanship is stressed.  I have no problem with what you suggest for college and higher.  I'm just interested in what everyone thinks so I really appreciate your input.

A lot of the hs varsity field here have the fence in front of the home team dugout at 3 feet tall and the visitors at full height.  I'm not going to stop the game for that although it is giving the home team a so called advantage.

Your situation is one I haven't ran in to.  I do know a couple of teams here have ac installed in their dugout.

[Pops]

There's nothing in the rules for us to enforce, but the OP got me to thinking that with enough money, the home team could make their dugouts very comfortable (A/C, heat, leather seating, roomy, fancy bat racks and shelving, refrigerator, cabinetry, etc.) and make the visitors very uncomfortable (only a narrow wooden bench with no roof or other accommodations).  No hospitality for the guests.  Advantage or not?  

However, with all that said, the game is eventually won on the field.

[urout17]

2 minutes ago, umpstu said:

A lot of the hs varsity field here have the fence in front of the home team dugout at 3 feet tall and the visitors at full height.  I'm not going to stop the game for that although it is giving the home team a so called advantage.

Your situation is one I haven't ran in to.  I do know a couple of teams here have ac installed in their dugout.

Well, I guess two questions then.

1. How does a shorter fence give the home team an advantage, for viewing?

2. I take it you let the teams with ac's use them?

Just wondering.  Thanks.

[noumpere]

2 hours ago, umpstu said:

Your situation is one I haven't ran in to.  I do know a couple of teams here have ac installed in their dugout.

Lots of places I've been to in the south have "misters" above the home dugout, and nothing on the visitors.  It's never been an issue.

[umpstu]

2 hours ago, urout17 said:

Well, I guess two questions then.

1. How does a shorter fence give the home team an advantage, for viewing?

2. I take it you let the teams with ac's use them?

Just wondering.  Thanks.

Yes, viewing. And I wouldn't know if they had the ac going.  I know I wouldn't have any issues with it.  Gets extremely hot here.

[Minnz]

Stay out of the dugout. That is not your home. Unless they are altering bats and balls you don't need to look in there.

[johnnyg08]

What rule would you use to determine that a team can't have heaters in their dugouts?  

They can't warm their bats, but why go there?  

There are enough things on the field that can cause us problems, stay away from this one.  It's over-officiating and making up rules.  Focus on the stuff on the field.

[noumpere]

On ‎4‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 0:47 PM, urout17 said:

I did just for the hell of it.

And what did they say? 

[urout17]

As a matter of fact we just got word yesterday from the sanctioning body of the IHSA Rules Committee.  They said as long as they don't use them to warm their bats it's legal (we already knew that).  The question posed to the IHSA was they were using PORTABLE heaters in their dugout which wasn't case, they were professionally installed radiant heaters located on the ceiling of their dugout.

We totally understood you don't go looking for trouble since the game is hard enough.  I'm not sure how to put this in the age of political correctness but nobody on this forum was there except my partner and the teams involved.  We made a judgement call (good or bad) based on the SPORTSMANSHIP of the game at the HS LEVEL that we stress to both head coaches before each game. When we asked if he could turn them off he had no problem and did so right away. I'm not kidding when I say the wind was blowing 25-30mph with gusts up to 50mph and a game time temp of 41, you do the math on the windchill.  When the snow/sleet/ice balls started blowing horizontal we stopped the game for safety reasons in the 3rd inning.

I think we all beat this topic to death enough.  I thank everyone for their posts and always look forward to reading everyone's situations.

Have a great season everyone.

[ALStripes17]

As a matter of fact we just got word yesterday from the sanctioning body of the IHSA Rules Committee.  They said as long as they don't use them to warm their bats it's legal (we already knew that).  The question posed to the IHSA was they were using PORTABLE heaters in their dugout which wasn't case, they were professionally installed radiant heaters located on the ceiling of their dugout.

We totally understood you don't go looking for trouble since the game is hard enough.  I'm not sure how to put this in the age of political correctness but nobody on this forum was there except my partner and the teams involved.  We made a judgement call (good or bad) based on the SPORTSMANSHIP of the game at the HS LEVEL that we stress to both head coaches before each game. When we asked if he could turn them off he had no problem and did so right away. I'm not kidding when I say the wind was blowing 25-30mph with gusts up to 50mph and a game time temp of 41, you do the math on the windchill.  When the snow/sleet/ice balls started blowing horizontal we stopped the game for safety reasons in the 3rd inning.

I think we all beat this topic to death enough.  I thank everyone for their posts and always look forward to reading everyone's situations.

Have a great season everyone.

You asked a question and you got an answer. If you were offended, it's your fault. Don't belittle us and attempt to be 'PC' in the process. Quit sitting on your shoulders man. Handle the situation as you will, and it may have worked fine, but there are a lot of GREAT umpires on this page that we would all be so lucky to call with. Your sportsmanship jargon may help you rest your head on your pillow at night but there is some great advice here that you seem to throw by the wayside.

And remember, according to your state governing body, you were wrong!!

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[urout17]

This is why I don't post often.  I'm not trying to offend anyone nor was I offended.  I sincerely appreciate everyone's input.  When anyone writes anything on any social media, you don't know the tone of the response.  Mine was not to offend, just looking for input.

I appreciate your opinion.  Have a nice day.

[ricka56]

45 minutes ago, urout17 said:

... based on the SPORTSMANSHIP of the game at the HS LEVEL that we stress to both head coaches before each game.

I've listened to partner "stress" sportsmanship and I always think, that a waste of breathe. Nothing said at a plate meeting is going to change who these players and coaches are or how they'll behave. 

Best sportsmanship line I've heard, "I am required by my chapter to mention sportsmanship ...I just did". 

[ALStripes17]

This is why I don't post often.  I'm not trying to offend anyone nor was I offended.  I sincerely appreciate everyone's input.  When anyone writes anything on any social media, you don't know the tone of the response.  Mine was not to offend, just looking for input.

I appreciate your opinion.  Have a nice day.

"...but nobody on this forum was there except my partner and the teams involved."

I'm not sure how else that is supposed to be taken. We are all well aware that we weren't there. You offered a scenario and got sound advice. Again, you are calling out the responders to this OP when your state declared you wrong.

Post as often as you'd like, but also understand that the advice you get may not be what you WANT to hear.

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[urout17]

Al, please give it a rest.  I get it.  Do you think anybody likes to have their sentences picked apart and deciphered to no end.

I'll be back to just reading again.

Have a nice day.

[Thunderheads]

1 hour ago, ALStripes17 said:

 

 

You asked a question and you got an answer. If you were offended, it's your fault. Don't belittle us and attempt to be 'PC' in the process. Quit sitting on your shoulders man. Handle the situation as you will, and it may have worked fine, but there are a lot of GREAT umpires on this page that we would all be so lucky to call with. Your sportsmanship jargon may help you rest your head on your pillow at night but there is some great advice here that you seem to throw by the wayside.

And remember, according to your state governing body, you were wrong!!

 

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This response isn't called for IMHO.   I don't think @urout17 is belittling anyone ....I just read through this entire thread and there's just nothing there.

[ALStripes17]

This response isn't called for IMHO.   I don't think @urout17 is belittling anyone ....I just read through this entire thread and there's just nothing there.

Fair enough... We will have to agree to disagree. Too many come on here, ask questions to scenarios, and become defensive when they don't get the answer they want to hear. I felt this was a valid case.

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