Do you have FPSR here?

[grayhawk]

I would not have called this a FPSR violation before reading this thread, but I will from now on.  I did not appreciate that the whole body (legs trunk and arms) must slide directly into the base.  

The baseball fan in me does not like this rule.  Trying to break up the double play, and the fielder turning a double play in spite of the runner's attempt, are things of beauty.

So thanks for this post, and thanks RichVee for the link to the useful video.

That's exactly why I posted it.  Glad you were able to gain some additional knowledge!

[maven]

That call would be made by PU, and that angle isn't the best for seeing that kind of slide. 

As PU I would have no trouble seeing this slide. I'd see the feet wide of the base, and I'd see the fielder dodge, either of which would be sufficient.

It's fine if BU gets this, but I have no problem if he's turning with the throw. I'd like someone to get it. I'd never ding a crew for PU taking it.

[noumpere]

That call would be made by PU, and that angle isn't the best for seeing that kind of slide.

First, thanks for your honest answer.  Usually in discussions like this, the question is "is it a violation" not "do you think anyone could see it?" so I mis-understood your response.  I thought you were saying you wouldn't call it if you saw it, or the video doesn't support a violation.  I agree that if it's not seen it can't be called, and sometimes that can happen in a two-umpire game.

Second, though, PU can see this if he gets his ass out from behind home plate and umpires the play (not directed at you).

 

[Richvee]

 

Second, though, PU can see this if he gets his ass out from behind home plate and umpires the play (not directed at you).

 

..A somewhat related question on this. (Maybe it should a new topic in the mechanics section.) As PU, with R1 only, and a ground ball on the infield with a play at 2nd, do you like coming out from behind the plate between 3rd and the mound or up the right side between 1st and the mound. I've heard both in different clinics. Personally I like between 1st and the mound..better angle to see a direct slide into 2nd, and close to 1st for help on a swipe/pulled foot.  

[grayhawk]

..A somewhat related question on this. (Maybe it should a new topic in the mechanics section.) As PU, with R1 only, and a ground ball on the infield with a play at 2nd, do you like coming out from behind the plate between 3rd and the mound or up the right side between 1st and the mound. I've heard both in different clinics. Personally I like between 1st and the mound..better angle to see a direct slide into 2nd, and close to 1st for help on a swipe/pulled foot.  

I agree with this and prefer the first base side even though our official association mechanic is the third base side.  The only reason the third base side makes sense is if PU is going to take the play on R1 if he is safe at second and attempts to advance to third.  Our association only has PU rotating to third when the ball is batted into the outfield, so I think the first base side is the better angle.

[noumpere]

I agree with this and prefer the first base side even though our official association mechanic is the third base side.  The only reason the third base side makes sense is if PU is going to take the play on R1 if he is safe at second and attempts to advance to third.  Our association only has PU rotating to third when the ball is batted into the outfield, so I think the first base side is the better angle.

Agreed.

[ElkOil]

First, thanks for your honest answer.  Usually in discussions like this, the question is "is it a violation" not "do you think anyone could see it?" so I mis-understood your response.  I thought you were saying you wouldn't call it if you saw it, or the video doesn't support a violation.  I agree that if it's not seen it can't be called, and sometimes that can happen in a two-umpire game.

Second, though, PU can see this if he gets his ass out from behind home plate and umpires the play (not directed at you).

 

I shoulda been clearer on my post, so thanks for seeing my intent.  @Richvee and @grayhawk make good points about busting up the 1B side.  Since this is a rotation play, I automatically go up the 3B side, but I like the idea of doing it their way to get a better look.  And if the ball gets through, it's a short trip to 3B to complete the rotation, if necessary.

[jpperez14]

A somewhat related question on this. (Maybe it should a new topic in the mechanics section.) As PU, with R1 only, and a ground ball on the infield with a play at 2nd, do you like coming out from behind the plate between 3rd and the mound or up the right side between 1st and the mound. I've heard both in different clinics. Personally I like between 1st and the mound..better angle to see a direct slide into 2nd, and close to 1st for help on a swipe/pulled foot.  

what a learned last weekend is you dont rotate to 3rd if the ball doesnt leave the infield.so you would go between the mound and 1st, I believe its a better angle to see the slide at 2nd and if a throw goes by F3 or whoever is covering 1st, you have the overthrow responsibilities. (Ball stays in play or enters DBT) then you move back home for any play at the plate. 

After reading the 2015 CCA Manual - PG 63-64 This is what is said (for those who don't have it)
(PLAYS WITHIN THE INFIELD)

PU: Move toward the 3rd base side of the pitcher's mound to assist U1 with slide at 2nd by R1. If R1 is out, stay with the slide to ensure the slide was legal then turn towards first for secondary responsibility on a swipe tag and/or pulled foot at 1st. If R1 is safe and attempts to 3rd, PU has responsibility for plays at 3rd if ball and runner come together. Also, has all plays at home.

(PLAYS WITHIN THE INFIELD: OVERTHROW)
PU: moves toward the 3rd base side of the mound to assist U1 on the slide at 2nd if the defense attempts a play. When no play is attempted, R1 advances towards 3rd, PU is responsible for plays at 3rd and home.
U1: Move into the best position to rule on plays at 1st and 2nd including drifting towards 1st if there is an attempted double play. U1 has all plays at 1st and 2nd and taking BR to 3rd. When PU must assume responsibility for R1, U1 becomes responsible for the overthrow and ball going out of play.
 

Edited September 15, 2015 by jpperez14
Begin reading CCA Manual

[Thunderheads]

As PU I would have no trouble seeing this slide. I'd see the feet wide of the base, and I'd see the fielder dodge, either of which would be sufficient.

It's fine if BU gets this, but I have no problem if he's turning with the throw. I'd like someone to get it. I'd never ding a crew for PU taking it.

agree with all, however, the fielder didn't 'dodge' ....that was his motion coming across 2nd (imho)

[noumpere]

what a learned last weekend is you dont rotate to 3rd if the ball doesnt leave the infield.so you would go between the mound and 1st, I believe its a better angle to see the slide at 2nd and if a throw goes by F3 or whoever is covering 1st, you have the overthrow responsibilities. (Ball stays in play or enters DBT) then you move back home for any play at the plate. 

After reading the 2015 CCA Manual - PG 63-64 This is what is said (for those who don't have it)(PLAYS WITHIN THE INFIELD)

PU: Move toward the 3rd base side of the pitcher's mound to assist U1 with slide at 2nd by R1. If R1 is out, stay with the slide to ensure the slide was legal then turn towards first for secondary responsibility on a swipe tag and/or pulled foot at 1st. If R1 is safe and attempts to 3rd, PU has responsibility for plays at 3rd if ball and runner come together. Also, has all plays at home.

(PLAYS WITHIN THE INFIELD: OVERTHROW)
PU: moves toward the 3rd base side of the mound to assist U1 on the slide at 2nd if the defense attempts a play. When no play is attempted, R1 advances towards 3rd, PU is responsible for plays at 3rd and home.
U1: Move into the best position to rule on plays at 1st and 2nd including drifting towards 1st if there is an attempted double play. U1 has all plays at 1st and 2nd and taking BR to 3rd. When PU must assume responsibility for R1, U1 becomes responsible for the overthrow and ball going out of play.
 

Despite what it says, lots of areas (well, I've worked in three at least) ignore this part and go by the "if the batted ball doesn't leave the infield, BU has all plays on the bases" guideline

[Thunderheads]

Would you call FPSR on this play?  If so and you were BU, would you still have eyes on this or would you have already turned with the throw?

For those who say "FPSR ALL DAY", etc, etc, blah blah blah ..... .... I doubt in real time you'd catch this as you'd probably turned with the ball already.  (NOT THAT IT ISN'T FPSR,  because I think it is ....but)

That said ....personally I feel the same about me:  I probably would not (as base ump) as I probably would have turned w/ the ball (just being honest).

[maven]

For those who say "FPSR ALL DAY", etc, etc, blah blah blah ..... .... I doubt in real time you'd catch this as you'd probably turned with the ball already.  (NOT THAT IT ISN'T FPSR,  because I think it is ....but)

That said ....personally I feel the same about me:  I probably would not (as base ump) as I probably would have turned w/ the ball (just being honest).

Jeff, although people seem to be making a big deal about BU getting this, I really don't think that's the primary concern.

We need to agree first of all that it's a FPSR violation. Once we're all on the same page about that, it really doesn't matter who calls it. I don't think BU has to get this, and I wouldn't downgrade one who turned with the throw.

If we're all looking for the same thing, one of us will see it here (provided PU is not rooted to his spot behind the plate).

[Thunderheads]

Jeff, although people seem to be making a big deal about BU getting this, I really don't think that's the primary concern.

We need to agree first of all that it's a FPSR violation. Once we're all on the same page about that, it really doesn't matter who calls it. I don't think BU has to get this, and I wouldn't downgrade one who turned with the throw.

If we're all looking for the same thing, one of us will see it here (provided PU is not rooted to his spot behind the plate).

Great points, and I agree with everything.  I posted what I posted to get back to @grayhawk 's OP ...and to answer the question he actually asked.

[Haid D' Salaami]

Did he interfere?

He doesnt have to interfere. His slide is Illegal which is a rule violation. 

 

Reread the rule and you'll see that he doesnt need to interfere for the FPSR to be called. 

[Forest Ump]

He doesn't have to interfere. His slide is Illegal which is a rule violation. 

 

Reread the rule and you'll see that he doesn't need to interfere for the FPSR to be called. 

Exactly. Don't  use the word interference when explaining this call to the coach. It's a safety rule used in HS and College. On a force play, if the runner chooses to slide, he must do so with his entire legs, trunk and arms directly into the base or in a direction away from the fielder. Richvee's post has a great link to the Arizona Baseball Association video detailing this call. Additionally, I think anyone can download the NCAA rule book, which in my opinion explains this rule in a much clearer way than the Fed book does. There are only some minor differences between NCAA and Fed. Fed does not allow the pop up or  contact beyond the base.

I made this call seven times last season. The most ever. Three as a BU and four as PU. One of the calls was made at home on a bases loaded 6-2-3 play.

[johnnyg08]

FPSR in FED and NCAA whether or not they could've turned two is irrelevant.

[JaxRolo]

He doesnt have to interfere. His slide is Illegal which is a rule violation. 

 

Reread the rule and you'll see that he doesnt need to interfere for the FPSR to be called. 

Good post!

[Cav]

HS and NCAA (amateur ball) FPSR is also in the books to help mitigate the need for Testosterone Tommy's team to retaliate on the on-deck hitter's head after his team's R1 dumps Tommy's middle infielder.  Pros get away with self-policing.  But, that doesn't make it right in amateur ball just because it's on TV.