Runner Pass First Runner

[Guest John]

This scenairo happened in a Dixie Youth game age 11 and 12. Runner on 2nd (R2)  and 3rd (R1). Batter hits a homerun. Players run out and surround homeplate for a celebration. Before R1 gets to the plate R1 joins the line at the end of the plate on the third base side and never touches the plate. R2 comes around, passes where R1 is standing and joins the line at the First base side and he does not touch the plate. If there was one out, are both R2 and the batter out because they passed R1? If there were no outs is it a triple play since R2 touched the plate and a preceding runner can't go back to touch a plate once it was touched by a following runner?

[grayhawk]

The way I'm reading this, the runner from third never even reached the plate, so the instant the runner from second passes him, then the runner from second is out. We now have the BR coming to the plate, and if he passes the runner from third, then he's out too. No appeal necessary since the runner from third never reached the plate. 

Whoever makes this call may need a police escort to leave the park. 

[StrikeToWin]

I believe that it is nothing until the defense asks for a missed base appeal.  And then you are only getting an out for the runners that missed the plate so R1 and R2.  Someone with more knowledge than me will chime in but I think they even have to both be appealed, not just a general appeal at the plate.  As an umpire, you shouldn't make that call without an appeal nor bring it to the defenses attention.

[kylehutson]

My thought is "first runner is out for abandoning - the other two score". I see no reason why the other two would have any reason to think the the first runner didn't already score.

[Guest]

The way I'm reading this, the runner from third never even reached the plate, so the instant the runner from second passes him, then the runner from second is out. We now have the BR coming to the plate, and if he passes the runner from third, then he's out too. No appeal necessary since the runner from third never reached the plate.

Whoever makes this call may need a police escort to leave the park.

​Everything including the police escort is what I thought should be called. After further comments from others I will let you know what actually happened.

[noumpere]

Players run out and surround homeplate for a celebration.

​Umpire should keep the other players away.  Then, the runner will (be more likely to) touch the plate, and none of the rest happens.

[Aging_Arbiter]

noumpere is on it!  Preventative umpiring........Personally, I like it when kids come out to celebrate.  I inform them "Give me the dirt" (surrounding home plate), then you can have him!  I move out into the working area between home & the mound to pick up any touches at 3rd that you are responsible for, as well as having a (now) unobstructed view of the plate.  as he mentioned, you vacate the dirt area of any other players, and I'd bet a dollar to a doughnut that the lead runner will touch the plate.

[Rich Ives]

Treat it as either abandonment or a missed base.

 

7.12 (old) Unless two are out, the status of a following runner is not affected by a preceding
runner’s failure to touch or retouch a base.

 

Score two runs.

[StrikeToWin]

Now I'm curious, is this something that we as umpires should automatically enforce, or should it only be called on appeal?

[Rich Ives]

Now I'm curious, is this something that we as umpires should automatically enforce, or should it only be called on appeal?

​If you treat it as a missed base then it needs an appeal.

[maven]

Now I'm curious, is this something that we as umpires should automatically enforce, or should it only be called on appeal?

​Call it when you see it, this is not appealable. Point and verbalize. The ball remains live.

[kylehutson]

If he didn't get to it, it's not a missed base - that's something you'd have to point and verbalize (i'm thinking wait until the next runner is there and then say "runner is out for abandonment" - feel free to correct me there). The second runner who went past home without touching is an appeal call.

[grayhawk]

I guess it's possible to use abandonment to get out of this mess.  While he's not heading for either his dugout or his position on defense, he has pretty obviously given up his effort to touch home.  If you call the out for abandonment, then maybe the following runner wakes up and touches the plate and the poor BR gets to keep his home run.

What this most certainly isn't (for R3 anyway), is a missed base.  Runners can only miss bases, including the plate, that they have gone past without touching.  Stopping several feet short isn't missing it.  R2 might have missed unless he just peeled off to his left before ever getting there.

[Rich Ives]

I guess it's possible to use abandonment to get out of this mess.  While he's not heading for either his dugout or his position on defense, he has pretty obviously given up his effort to touch home.  If you call the out for abandonment, then maybe the following runner wakes up and touches the plate and the poor BR gets to keep his home run.

What this most certainly isn't (for R3 anyway), is a missed base.  Runners can only miss bases, including the plate, that they have gone past without touching.  Stopping several feet short isn't missing it.  R2 might have missed unless he just peeled off to his left before ever getting there.

​Take a liberal approach to 7.12 and call it a "failure to touch" as the rule calls it so there's no effect on the following runners.

Do NOT try to get 2 or three outs on this. It's 11-12 rec ball, not MLB.

[Replacematt]

​Take a liberal approach to 7.12 and call it a "failure to touch" as the rule calls it so there's no effect on the following runners.

Do NOT try to get 2 or three outs on this. It's 11-12 rec ball, not MLB.

​That's not a liberal approach, that's making things up. If you want not to get multiple outs on this, use the abandonment rule (of which I am still not entirely convinced is applicable, either.)

Edited June 16, 2015 by Matt

[kylehutson]

​That's not a liberal approach, that's making things up. If you want not to get multiple outs on this, use the abandonment rule (of which I am still not entirely convinced is applicable, either.)

​If it's not applicable, about the only thing you could do is point to R2 and say loudly as R2 passes R3 "runner is out for passing a leading runner" (or similar) and hope that gets R3's head in the game far enough to go touch the plate.

[ScubaUmp]

5.09.9 A runner is out when- (9) He passes a preceding runner before such runner is out

Call it., or just stand there and do nothing its 11/12s. Abandonment is wrong, but it's door out of bad situation.

keep them in the dugout.

HTBT, glad I wasn't. 

 

Edited June 16, 2015 by ScubaUmp
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[maven]

I went back and re-read the OP. What a mess: R2/R3 and the batter hits a HR. During the dead-ball award, R3 never reaches the plate but "steps aside" to allow R2 and the BR to score. R2 misses the base (passes it, stands on 1B side of HP). The BR completes his award (I guess). Do I have that right?

I see 2 options:

1. Rule that R3 has NOT abandoned his effort to run the bases. R2 is then out the moment he passes R3, and his "missed base" is nothing (as he's already out). The BR is out when he passes R3. Then we have to wait and see what R3 does: he may still complete his award, or he could yet be out for abandonment (if he heads for/enters the dugout, depending on the code). This yields 2 outs, possibly 3, none of which is an appeal play.
2. Rule that R3 HAS abandoned his effort to run the bases. At that point, he is out, and the other runners have the opportunity to complete their awards. If R2 missed the plate, then he is liable to be out on appeal. Otherwise his run counts. If the BR touched, then his run counts.

I guess I'm leaning toward option 2 for a few reasons. First, R3 is the one who screwed up in the first place, and abandonment is not totally inapt as a description of what he did, so pin the mess on him. Second, it minimizes the damage for the offense in a way that makes it easier to sell (that's a consideration only in TWP's that are otherwise utter head scratchers). Third, it makes the offense liable for their other baserunning infraction, and makes the defense responsible for appealing it.

Now: for extra credit, suppose we decide option 2 is the better way to go, and suppose R3 is out for abandonment. Suppose that's the third out. Assuming that the defense doesn't appeal R2's missed base (how would they see it with all those players around?), how many runs score?

[kylehutson]

Now: for extra credit, suppose we decide option 2 is the better way to go, and suppose R3 is out for abandonment. Suppose that's the third out. Assuming that the defense doesn't appeal R2's missed base (how would they see it with all those players around?), how many runs score?

​Using no resources except the top of my head, two, because the other two are allowed to proceed without liability - it's a dead ball award and not a time play.

Do I win?

[grayhawk]

​Using no resources except the top of my head, two, because the other two are allowed to proceed without liability - it's a dead ball award and not a time play.

Do I win?

​I would say time play in OBR (no runs score) and not a time play in Fed (2 runs score).  I know this is the case when the third out is made for passing a preceding runner.  Not sure if it would apply for abandonment as well, but it seems like it should since in both cases, the out is called immediately but you let the rest of the play run its course.

[noumpere]

​Using no resources except the top of my head, two, because the other two are allowed to proceed without liability - it's a dead ball award and not a time play.

Do I win?

​No.  How many runners *behind* the third out can score?

[Replacematt]

No runs. Third out was made by a preceding runner to both runners.

[noumpere]

Piggybacking on the "BR runs into BU" thread, I'm leaning toward PU backing up to get a better view, and "accidentally" bumping into R3 causing him to touch the plate. 

[grayhawk]

No runs. Third out was made by a preceding runner to both runners.

​Oooh.  You might have a point.

[Guest]

Ok here is how it was called. This was actually a friend of mine this happened to and when he told this to me I immediately said he passed the runner and is therefore out. But what he called was a non touch and the coach never appealed so he let it stand. When discussing it though we came up with all kinds of scenairios that you could call but since this is Rec ball I like the approach of no touch. If it were high school I would probably call R3 out for abandonment. Thanks everyone!

[Rich Ives]

Guys! It's 11-12 rec ball. Call three outs and everyone, and I mean everyone - both teams, in the park will  think you're nuts and will vocalize it in various ways.