That's how you appeal???

[Umpire in Chief]

This is not my story. My friend was the PU for this game, but I thought was funny and wanted to share...

 

R2, 0 outs.

Ball hit to deep right-center. R2 was off with the pitch, and actually rounded 3rd and was 1/2 way home when he realized the ball was caught. R2 doesn't even attempt to retouch 3rd and goes directly to 2nd. 

DC comes unglued screaming at the BU How did you not see that he didn't touch 3rd again, and the like. This goes on for a brief time and the BU tells him that's enough.

DC then goes to PU saying the BU is a moron, yadda, yadda,yadda. Then says to the PU, you've gotta be able to help me out here, I know you must have seen that. 

PU: Actually I did see it, and that would be my call. 

DC: So what can you do for me? 

PU: So what your saying is you would like to appeal that he didn't retouch 3rd?

DC: I guess

PU: Steps up points at the runner on 2nd and says he's out for not properly retouching 3rd. DC goes away happy and the OC didn't say a word.

 

What makes the story even better is the PU told me as this was happening he was remembering what Hunter Wendelstedt said in my interview​ with him, "Some questions won't have a question mark at the end of it." 

 

[johnnyg08]

That's a great line "Some questions won't have a question mark at the end of it" 

[grayhawk]

Here coach, allow me to help you get out of your own way...

[maven]

I doubt that the DC "went away happy." I'd guess he thinks that crew is either idiots or a-holes. Or maybe both.

PU should have wrangled him when he came out, asked what he wanted, and ruled on it immediately. Demanding pointless hoop-jumping is rude, officious, and crap game management.

Absolutely no reason to allow the dog and pony show to get started. Everyone in the ball park knew what the runner did and what the call should be. Let's get it done quickly and get back to baseball, preferably before anyone's blood pressure rises too much.

[grayhawk]

I agree Maven, except this part:

DC comes unglued screaming...

...is like biting the hand that you want to feed you.  Too bad the coach was too ignorant to just calmly ask for time and verbalize his appeal.  Would have made things a heck of a lot easier.

[pnewton]

For the sake of discussion... how do we handle this in OBR where there are no "verbal appeals"?

I think my reaction would be to tell the coach that there is nothing for me to rule on without an appeal, and hope that he gets the hint.

[maven]

I agree Maven, except this part:

 

...is like biting the hand that you want to feed you.  Too bad the coach was too ignorant to just calmly ask for time and verbalize his appeal.  Would have made things a heck of a lot easier.

​Some folks go from zero to moron in 1 second, but I suspect we don't have the whole story. I'd guess we're missing something like: "Hey Bob [to BU], he missed 3B going back. [no response from BU]  Bob ... Bob, he missed 3B! [no response] Bob!!!"

If Bob sends him immediately to PU, who immediately rules on the dead-ball appeal, I'd also guess that the "coming unglued" never happens.

Of course, the world is full of idiots, and this coach might be among them. But assuming so is not how to manage the game, nor the best way for us to proceed.

[ricka56]

​I think that missed retouch should have been PU's call anyway. BU should have re-directed DC to PU better yet PU should have stepped up and talked to DC. But since BU took the heat and owned the call, a better PU response would have been :

PU: Why don't you go to my partner and ask for a missed retouch appeal and while you're at it, you can tell him that you were mistaken about which one of you two was the moron.

[Majordave]

@ricka56

Man that's funny right there.

 

@Maven is right.  Grab the bull by the horns explain what needs to be explained even if it is appeal procedure, whatever ruleset you are working under, and get the game moving again.  Especially for obvious calls like the one described in the OP.  As for the coach being unglued and a jackwagon, etc.  You don't need to add to that mess.  He is is his own worst enemy which is almost always readily apparent to all involved at levels below professional.  Umpires must maintain the professionalism and remain above the fray being "kind, courteous and firm to all they come into contact with". (Or something like that.

[Mad Mike]

While we are on the topic of appeals, for an OBR rule set, I know appeals are only allowed during live ball situations. I would like to know how we should handle it if time is called and then after the ball is made live again, the defense initiates an appeal play.

SITUATION: Runner at third one out. Fly ball to right field is caught for out #2. R3 leaves third base early and scores. Defensive coach requests time, goes out to mound to talk to pitcher and returns to dugout. Ball is put back into play. Pitcher while on the rubber, steps and throws to 3rd base for the purpose of making an appeal. Is this a balk? Or is this allowable?

Half of the umpires present say the pitcher has to legally disengage first and then throw to third. The other half say he is fine to do this, even though the base is now unoccupied, because he is stepping and throwing to the base for the purpose of making a play (in this case an appeal play). How would you handle this and what rule support would you use?

[JonnyCat]

While we are on the topic of appeals, for an OBR rule set, I know appeals are only allowed during live ball situations. I would like to know how we should handle it if time is called and then after the ball is made live again, the defense initiates an appeal play.

SITUATION: Runner at third one out. Fly ball to right field is caught for out #2. R3 leaves third base early and scores. Defensive coach requests time, goes out to mound to talk to pitcher and returns to dugout. Ball is put back into play. Pitcher while on the rubber, steps and throws to 3rd base for the purpose of making an appeal. Is this a balk? Or is this allowable?

Half of the umpires present say the pitcher has to legally disengage first and then throw to third. The other half say he is fine to do this, even though the base is now unoccupied, because he is stepping and throwing to the base for the purpose of making a play (in this case an appeal play). How would you handle this and what rule support would you use?

​Allow the appeal. 7.10. Can't be a balk, no runners on.

Edited May 21, 2015 by JonnyCat

[Mad Mike]

Thanks for the information. Would it make a difference if we tweaked the situation to have a runners at R1 and R3? R3 scores. R1 holds at first. Now there are two out and the same situation takes place-time is called, ball put back into play, defense appeals to third base, pitcher does not disengage and steps towards third base and throws the ball for the purpose of appealing.

[Jimurray]

​Allow the appeal. 7.10. Can't be a balk, no runners on.

​Even with runners it would not be a balk. PBUC and MLBUM confirm this.

[JonnyCat]

​Even with runners it would not be a balk. PBUC and MLBUM confirm this.

​Agree. See section 8.7, page 92 of the PBUC Manual (2014). Last paragraph allows for a pitcher to throw to a base from the rubber to make an appeal play.

Edited May 21, 2015 by JonnyCat

[Mad Mike]

Thanks for the citiations. I don't have access to the PBUC Manual, but I reviewed Rule 7.10 and Rule 8.05 (d) and this presents a quandry.

7.10
Any runner shall be called out, on appeal, when -- 
(a) After a fly ball is caught, he fails to retouch his original base before he or his original base is tagged;
Rule 7.10(a) Comment: Retouch, in this rule, means to tag up and start from a contact with the base after the ball is caught. A runner is not permitted to take a flying start from a position in back of his base.
(b) With the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged.
APPROVED RULING: (1) No runner may return to touch a missed base after a following runner has scored. (2) When the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base.
Rule 7.10(b) Comment: PLAY. (a) Batter hits ball out of park or ground rule double and misses first base (ball is dead)he may return to first base to correct his mistake before he touches second but if he touches second he may not return to first and if defensive team appeals he is declared out at first.
PLAY. (b) Batter hits ball to shortstop who throws wild into stand (ball is dead)batter-runner misses first base but is awarded second base on the overthrow. Even though the umpire has awarded the runner second base on the overthrow, the runner must touch first base before he proceeds to second base. These are appeal plays.
(c) He overruns or overslides first base and fails to return to the base immediately, and he or the base is tagged;
(d) He fails to touch home base and makes no attempt to return to that base, and home base is tagged.
Any appeal under this rule must be made before the next pitch, or any play or attempted play. If the violation occurs during a play which ends a half-inning, the appeal must be made before the defensive team leaves the field.
An appeal is not to be interpreted as a play or an attempted play.
Successive appeals may not be made on a runner at the same base. If the defensive team on its first appeal errs, a request for a second appeal on the same runner at the same base shall not be allowed by the umpire. (Intended meaning of the word err is that the defensive team in making an appeal threw the ball out of play. For example, if the pitcher threw to first base to appeal and threw the ball into the stands, no second appeal would be allowed.)
Appeal plays may require an umpire to recognize an apparent fourth out. If the third out is made during a play in which an appeal play is sustained on another runner, the appeal play decision takes precedence in determining the out. If there is more than one appeal during a play that ends a half-inning, the defense may elect to take the out that gives it the advantage. For the purpose of this rule, the defensive team has left the field when the pitcher and all infielders have left fair territory on their way to the bench or clubhouse.
Rule 7.10 Comment: If two runners arrive at home base about the same time and the first runner misses home plate but a second runner legally touches the plate, the runner is tagged out on his attempt to come back and touch the base or is called out, on appeal, then he shall be considered as having been put out before the second runner scored and being the third out. Second runners run shall not count, as provided in Rule 7.12.
If a pitcher balks when making an appeal, such act shall be a play. An appeal should be clearly intended as an appeal, either by a verbal request by the player or an act that unmistakably indicates an appeal to the umpire. A player, inadvertently stepping on the base with a ball in his hand, would not constitute an appeal. Time is not out when an appeal is being made.

 

8.05
If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when --
(d) The pitcher, while touching his plate, throws, or feints a throw to an unoccupied base, except for the purpose of making a play;

_____________________________

So, the quandry here is that if an appeal is not considered as a play or an attempted play, then the pitcher would need to legally disengage before throwing to third to make a legal appeal and not balk. 

Thoughts? And how does this fit in with the cite from the PBUC Manual that you mentioned?

[Jimurray]

Thanks for the citiations. I don't have access to the PBUC Manual, but I reviewed Rule 7.10 and Rule 8.05 (d) and this presents a quandry.

7.10
Any runner shall be called out, on appeal, when -- 
(a) After a fly ball is caught, he fails to retouch his original base before he or his original base is tagged;
Rule 7.10(a) Comment: Retouch, in this rule, means to tag up and start from a contact with the base after the ball is caught. A runner is not permitted to take a flying start from a position in back of his base.
(b) With the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged.
APPROVED RULING: (1) No runner may return to touch a missed base after a following runner has scored. (2) When the ball is dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or one he has left after he has advanced to and touched a base beyond the missed base.
Rule 7.10(b) Comment: PLAY. (a) Batter hits ball out of park or ground rule double and misses first base (ball is dead)he may return to first base to correct his mistake before he touches second but if he touches second he may not return to first and if defensive team appeals he is declared out at first.
PLAY. (b) Batter hits ball to shortstop who throws wild into stand (ball is dead)batter-runner misses first base but is awarded second base on the overthrow. Even though the umpire has awarded the runner second base on the overthrow, the runner must touch first base before he proceeds to second base. These are appeal plays.
(c) He overruns or overslides first base and fails to return to the base immediately, and he or the base is tagged;
(d) He fails to touch home base and makes no attempt to return to that base, and home base is tagged.
Any appeal under this rule must be made before the next pitch, or any play or attempted play. If the violation occurs during a play which ends a half-inning, the appeal must be made before the defensive team leaves the field.
An appeal is not to be interpreted as a play or an attempted play.
Successive appeals may not be made on a runner at the same base. If the defensive team on its first appeal errs, a request for a second appeal on the same runner at the same base shall not be allowed by the umpire. (Intended meaning of the word err is that the defensive team in making an appeal threw the ball out of play. For example, if the pitcher threw to first base to appeal and threw the ball into the stands, no second appeal would be allowed.)
Appeal plays may require an umpire to recognize an apparent fourth out. If the third out is made during a play in which an appeal play is sustained on another runner, the appeal play decision takes precedence in determining the out. If there is more than one appeal during a play that ends a half-inning, the defense may elect to take the out that gives it the advantage. For the purpose of this rule, the defensive team has left the field when the pitcher and all infielders have left fair territory on their way to the bench or clubhouse.
Rule 7.10 Comment: If two runners arrive at home base about the same time and the first runner misses home plate but a second runner legally touches the plate, the runner is tagged out on his attempt to come back and touch the base or is called out, on appeal, then he shall be considered as having been put out before the second runner scored and being the third out. Second runners run shall not count, as provided in Rule 7.12.
If a pitcher balks when making an appeal, such act shall be a play. An appeal should be clearly intended as an appeal, either by a verbal request by the player or an act that unmistakably indicates an appeal to the umpire. A player, inadvertently stepping on the base with a ball in his hand, would not constitute an appeal. Time is not out when an appeal is being made.

 

8.05
If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when --
(d) The pitcher, while touching his plate, throws, or feints a throw to an unoccupied base, except for the purpose of making a play;

_____________________________

So, the quandry here is that if an appeal is not considered as a play or an attempted play, then the pitcher would need to legally disengage before throwing to third to make a legal appeal and not balk. 

Thoughts? And how does this fit in with the cite from the PBUC Manual that you mentioned?

​The PBUC/MLBUM cite should eliminate your quandary:

"Another interpretation regarding Offial Baseball Rule 8.05(d) concerns appeal plays:

It is NOT a balk for the pitcher, while in contact with the rubber, to throw to an unoccupied base IF it is for the purpose of making an appeal play. (Note that the pitcher does not have to step back off the rubber to make an appeal play.) "

However I would add my own note: Note while the pitcher does not have to step off it would be a good idea if he does so. It eliminates any other balk possibilty and precludes uninformed umpires from balking the pitcher for throwing to an unoccupied base.

[JonnyCat]

@‌Mad Mike. The interpretation in the PBUC Manual is an exception to 8.05d.

Also, an appeal is not to be considered as a play or attempted play in order to allow appeals on other runners. For instance, if you had 2 runners leaving early on a play and wanted to appeal both.

[grayhawk]

​The PBUC/MLBUM cite should eliminate your quandary:

"Another interpretation regarding Offial Baseball Rule 8.05(d) concerns appeal plays:

It is NOT a balk for the pitcher, while in contact with the rubber, to throw to an unoccupied base IF it is for the purpose of making an appeal play. (Note that the pitcher does not have to step back off the rubber to make an appeal play.) "

However I would add my own note: Note while the pitcher does not have to step off it would be a good idea if he does so. It eliminates any other balk possibilty and precludes uninformed umpires from balking the pitcher for throwing to an unoccupied base.

​Not to mention the confusion it would create if they throw home to appeal there.  It it a throw to make an appeal, or a pitch?

[afaber12]

For the sake of discussion... how do we handle this in OBR where there are no "verbal appeals"?

I think my reaction would be to tell the coach that there is nothing for me to rule on without an appeal, and hope that he gets the hint.

​I've never had anyone offer any differing advice on that situation. In an apparently obvious situation like the OP its probably not a big issue, but it'd be a good idea to be careful about how you word the response to the coach's question. "I can't call the runner out until you appeal properly" would be less than ideal. "If you believe the runner [missed the base/left early], then you should make a proper appeal" doesn't give any info away regarding how you - or your partner as the case may be - would rule, without you just standing there like a statue waiting for the pigeon to arrive.