pickoff

[Guest Elbert]

runners on first and third, can a pitcher make his cross over move to 2nd base in a attempt to catch the guy leaving early from first base when you know he is going to steal?

[Magic]

In FED yes. As long as he believes the runner to be stealing and the Umpire believes the runner to be stealing. I am not that versed in OBR to know the rules that well. Games worked 42

[Guest Elbert]

FED?

[Magic]

Ok what rule set was the game in?

Games worked 42

[maven]

He may throw to an unoccupied base only for the purpose of making a play. That means R1 must be stealing or feinting a steal for the throw to be legal.

Also, he must step directly to 2B, with no hesitation or movement to 1B. In my experience, most pitchers cannot do this effectively, which is why you never see it.

FED= HS rules.

[guyinaredhat]

Re OBR :The pitcher is allowed to step towards 2nd to drive back or put out a runner stealing 2nd .

[Magic]

So OBR is the same as Fed? That's good to know.

Games worked 42

[guyinaredhat]

The difference is in the feint . If a runner feints to 2nd then an umpire is still liable to balk the step to 2nd .

[noumpere]

So OBR is the same as Fed? That's good to know.

Games worked 42

By rule / interp they are different.

 

In practice for the levels most of us do, treat them the same.  That is, if a runner feints "enough" toward second to get the pitcher to throw there, treat it as if the runner was attempting second but then retreated.

[Guest Elbert]

this is a USSSA 14U team I was asking about.

[maven]

 

So OBR is the same as Fed? That's good to know.

Games worked 42

By rule / interp they are different.

 

In practice for the levels most of us do, treat them the same.  That is, if a runner feints "enough" toward second to get the pitcher to throw there, treat it as if the runner was attempting second but then retreated.

 

 

Exactly. There is a rule difference, but I'd enforce it differently only if I were working ball higher than HS varsity.

[mw94]

2014 OBR Rule change , new Comment  pretty much they are same interpretation in Fed & Pro now

 

 

(d) The pitcher, while touching his plate, throws, or feints a throw to an unoccupied

base, except for the purpose of making a play;

 

Rule 8.05(d) Comment: When determining whether the pitcher throws or feints a throw to an

unoccupied base for the purpose of making a play, the umpire should consider whether a runner on the

 previous base demonstrates or otherwise creates an impression of his intent to advance to such unoccupied base

 

The difference is in wording. Fed uses the "Feint"  .  OBR uses the words "creates the impression" 

[labguy1971]

^{Good stuff, have not run across this yet in a game.}

[Richvee]

Usually, the only time you'll see F1 step and throw like this is when the runner takes off while F1 is still in the set position. @labguy1971 - When you do see it, be ready for the OC to start barking F1 can't do that he has to step off, blah blah blah...Then you can explain the rule to him and he'll say "I never heard of that in my life" 

[labguy1971]

Did not have one like this topic but a few days back runner on 3rd broke for home while the pitcher calmly stepped off and ran at him.  Coach was hollering "THAT'S A BALK". They ended up getting the out and coach asked for time to talk with me about it.  I told him that pitcher stepped off and what he did was legal.  Coach said "well I did not see him step off, are you sure?"  I replied "yep"  Coaches get caught up in the moment and holler alot times about nothing.  Our job to stay calm when emotions run high.

[Guest roothog66]

Usually, the only time you'll see F1 step and throw like this is when the runner takes off while F1 is still in the set position. @labguy1971 - When you do see it, be ready for the OC to start barking F1 can't do that he has to step off, blah blah blah...Then you can explain the rule to him and he'll say "I never heard of that in my life" 

I used this a lot at younger ages because it made sense and was worth the risk. It was very effective in stopping the track meet at younger ages (up to 12u). Usually you know you can't stop the steal, so there isn't much risk involved - if R1 isn't stealing, he probably was going on the next pitch. As the kids got to 13u and 14u I used it only when I had either stolen the steal sign or had the rare kid that was definitely going to go and definitely going to complete the stolen base. I will say I often had to feel out umpires on the rule. Usually a subtle conversation between innings. I know most on here are well versed on the rule and would be slightly miffed at a coach bringing it up, but I often come across umps that hadn't thought much about it and would have called balk as a kneejerk reaction even when they knew the rule well. It's rare that I'll call it at 16u or older unless I have absolutely stolen the steal sign. The above warning is apt. The opposing coach WILL come off his rocker.

[Jocko]

Usually, the only time you'll see F1 step and throw like this is when the runner takes off while F1 is still in the set position. @labguy1971 - When you do see it, be ready for the OC to start barking F1 can't do that he has to step off, blah blah blah...Then you can explain the rule to him and he'll say "I never heard of that in my life"

I used this a lot at younger ages because it made sense and was worth the risk. It was very effective in stopping the track meet at younger ages (up to 12u). Usually you know you can't stop the steal, so there isn't much risk involved - if R1 isn't stealing, he probably was going on the next pitch. As the kids got to 13u and 14u I used it only when I had either stolen the steal sign or had the rare kid that was definitely going to go and definitely going to complete the stolen base. I will say I often had to feel out umpires on the rule. Usually a subtle conversation between innings. I know most on here are well versed on the rule and would be slightly miffed at a coach bringing it up, but I often come across umps that hadn't thought much about it and would have called balk as a kneejerk reaction even when they knew the rule well. It's rare that I'll call it at 16u or older unless I have absolutely stolen the steal sign. The above warning is apt. The opposing coach WILL come off his rocker.I make it a point never to have a rules clinic with coaches during the game

[Guest roothog66]

 

 

Usually, the only time you'll see F1 step and throw like this is when the runner takes off while F1 is still in the set position. @labguy1971 - When you do see it, be ready for the OC to start barking F1 can't do that he has to step off, blah blah blah...Then you can explain the rule to him and he'll say "I never heard of that in my life"

I used this a lot at younger ages because it made sense and was worth the risk. It was very effective in stopping the track meet at younger ages (up to 12u). Usually you know you can't stop the steal, so there isn't much risk involved - if R1 isn't stealing, he probably was going on the next pitch. As the kids got to 13u and 14u I used it only when I had either stolen the steal sign or had the rare kid that was definitely going to go and definitely going to complete the stolen base. I will say I often had to feel out umpires on the rule. Usually a subtle conversation between innings. I know most on here are well versed on the rule and would be slightly miffed at a coach bringing it up, but I often come across umps that hadn't thought much about it and would have called balk as a kneejerk reaction even when they knew the rule well. It's rare that I'll call it at 16u or older unless I have absolutely stolen the steal sign. The above warning is apt. The opposing coach WILL come off his rocker. I make it a point never to have a rules clinic with coaches during the game

 

I get that. However, I've never had an umpire find a problem with me saying, "Just a heads up. This pitcher is likely to pull an inside move with only a runner on first. We understand that it's a balk if the runner doesn't make a move toward stealing second." This usually opens up a conversation if there is any doubt in the umps mind. Sometimes an ump will simply verify he knows the rule. Sometimes they'll say it's a balk (usually quoting "unoccupied base) and be open to a conversation if handled correctly. Done it more than a hundred times and never had an ump simply not be willing to talk rules. While I understand you (and maybe some others here) wouldn't even have the conversation, I've had plenty of pleasant chats with umps on the field between innings about rules. I've even had umps (as high as the HS level) stick to their guns that it's a balk. I've even asked a few to, when they get time, take a look at the rule (and, in OBR games, the comment) and tell me what they think. Some have done so. I  did have one, though, tell me he could care less whether it fits the rule, he's going to call it a balk anyway. Point is, I've never had an ump take the stance that he won't have a conversation concerning the rules of the game.

[Jocko]

Usually, the only time you'll see F1 step and throw like this is when the runner takes off while F1 is still in the set position. @labguy1971 - When you do see it, be ready for the OC to start barking F1 can't do that he has to step off, blah blah blah...Then you can explain the rule to him and he'll say "I never heard of that in my life"

I used this a lot at younger ages because it made sense and was worth the risk. It was very effective in stopping the track meet at younger ages (up to 12u). Usually you know you can't stop the steal, so there isn't much risk involved - if R1 isn't stealing, he probably was going on the next pitch. As the kids got to 13u and 14u I used it only when I had either stolen the steal sign or had the rare kid that was definitely going to go and definitely going to complete the stolen base. I will say I often had to feel out umpires on the rule. Usually a subtle conversation between innings. I know most on here are well versed on the rule and would be slightly miffed at a coach bringing it up, but I often come across umps that hadn't thought much about it and would have called balk as a kneejerk reaction even when they knew the rule well. It's rare that I'll call it at 16u or older unless I have absolutely stolen the steal sign. The above warning is apt. The opposing coach WILL come off his rocker. I make it a point never to have a rules clinic with coaches during the game

I get that. However, I've never had an umpire find a problem with me saying, "Just a heads up. This pitcher is likely to pull an inside move with only a runner on first. We understand that it's a balk if the runner doesn't make a move toward stealing second." This usually opens up a conversation if there is any doubt in the umps mind. Sometimes an ump will simply verify he knows the rule. Sometimes they'll say it's a balk (usually quoting "unoccupied base) and be open to a conversation if handled correctly. Done it more than a hundred times and never had an ump simply not be willing to talk rules. While I understand you (and maybe some others here) wouldn't even have the conversation, I've had plenty of pleasant chats with umps on the field between innings about rules. I've even had umps (as high as the HS level) stick to their guns that it's a balk. I've even asked a few to, when they get time, take a look at the rule (and, in OBR games, the comment) and tell me what they think. Some have done so. I  did have one, though, tell me he could care less whether it fits the rule, he's going to call it a balk anyway. Point is, I've never had an ump take the stance that he won't have a conversation concerning the rules of the game.(insert coach's name), I'd be happy to explain the rules after the game. Right now isn't the appropriate time.

Granted, alot of the coaches I have, I see on a regular basis and have built a rapport with. I will have a QUICK discussion with them from time to time.

[catsbackr]

Why don't you teach your pitchers a good pick off move to first?  Why don't you get a catcher that can throw out would-be stealers?  Just curious.

[Guest Smith]

Just to clarify.....runner on second, RHP starts to lift his front leg, infielders yell "HE IS GOING" as runner on second takes off for third. Pitcher turns and throws to third. Legal right?

[maven]

Just to clarify.....runner on second, RHP starts to lift his front leg, infielders yell "HE IS GOING" as runner on second takes off for third. Pitcher turns and throws to third. Legal right?

 

In theory, it could be legal. In practice, he's almost always going to stop, hitch, set that foot down, or otherwise interrupt his motion in a way that will constitute a balk. I've never seen it done legally, at any level that I've worked or watched. I've seen dozens of balks, like this, though.

 

I'm no coach, but to me F1 has two options. If he's started his pitch, he needs to pitch. If not, step off, and run at the runner. Changing your mind mid-pitch will almost always result in a balk.