New NCAA HBP Rule

[Umpire in Chief]

Since may last collegiate post over a month ago all of my college games have been rained/snowed out. Until yesterday.

 

In my game I had a ton of HBP situations.

 

1 guy REALLY tried to legitimately get out of the way but still got pluncked.

2 other guys (1 got hit 2 times in the same AB) others "rolled" with the pitch. IMO "rolling" is not avoiding.

 

Early in the game the first guy who rolled and I kept in the box. The home coach came out and yelled at him that he knows he cant do that any more.

 

The second guy from the visitors rolled for ball 2 and I kept him in the box. And I kept him and caught crap from the visitor HC. I told him I didn't have that as an attempt to avoid being hit. He hollered for a while (did mention he was losing 10-1) and I told him the conversation was over. 

 

Now we have a full count, the pitch plunks him again and again he rolls. I called time and was very deliberate and vocal in saying "Ball 4" to attempt to let it be known I was awarding on balls, not HBP. The coach players and spectators go ape sh!+ because the player did the exact same thing and this time got the base in their mind b/c of HBP.

 

This was not a good situation. 

 

So here's my poll question: Do you consider "rolling" to be avoiding the pitch in accordance to how the NCAA wants the play called?

[Majordave]

I am still not sure what they want.  They really have not defined and given enough examples in my opinion.  I had that on Saturday and this past Wednesday.  

 

Wednesday's was top of first, batter was visiting F2.  He stood like a stone and took it in upper thigh.  I kept him in the box.

 

Saturday's was bottom of 6th, one run ball game, home winning.  Don't remember what position batter was playing.  R1, 1 out.  Had a ball up near shoulder/face into RH batter's box.  Batter flinched some and took it in the upper arm but did not jump back.  I gave him the base. Heard a lot of yelling and other crap by visiting skipper about he did not try to move.  I took off mask and told him "I had batter movement.  Pitcher might want to try putting ball over plate.  That's enough!"  He quit yelling but I know he was grumbling.  It was a close game and he lost.

 

I went back on Sunday and re-watched 2015 NCAA rules video on Arbiter.  Didn't really get any help from it.  

 

Warren, what is "rolling" to you?  Staying in box but moving body back toward you and F2?  If so, that's good enough for me. I will give the batter the base.

If it is rolling back but over the plate, i.e. leaning  down over the plate or into the pitch so to speak is not.  I would keep them there.

 

I don't think they have to look like too much of a bitch to get the base.

[noumpere]

NAIA has a "hbp" video out on their portion of Arbiter.  I agree with the rulings made in the video.

[Umpire in Chief]

By rolling I mean the pitch is up at the torso and the batter essentially keeps his feet in place and twists his shoulders/torso back to the plate and ends up getting hit in the back rather than the side.

[zm1283]

By rolling I mean the pitch is up at the torso and the batter essentially keeps his feet in place and twists his shoulders/torso back to the plate and ends up getting hit in the back rather than the side.

 

I am not keeping a batter at the plate for this, if it is as it sounds. 

[noumpere]

By rolling I mean the pitch is up at the torso and the batter essentially keeps his feet in place and twists his shoulders/torso back to the plate and ends up getting hit in the back rather than the side.

Send him to first.

[johnnyg08]

My plan going into this year is to give them the base if they give me some movement that isn't associated w/ moving/leaning/chicken-winging into a pitch.  Stands there like a statue or takes it in the elbow pad like a statue, he's staying here.  I'm not out there to make anybody's job more difficult.  If he gives me something, he's going to first.  

 

Warren,

 

I think the batter goes to first in the situation you describe.

[Majordave]

@noumpere

 

Where, exactly is the NAIA HBP video you mentioned. I looked in videos on baseball page and it takes me to NCAA that I have already seen.  Did a search but nothing came up for hit by pitch.

[noumpere]

It's called NAIA Baseball Video 1.  About 2/3 of the way down the list.

 

For some reason, between 2012 NCAA Baseball Video 2, and 2010 NCAA Baseball Clinic - Mechanics

 

No, I don't know why it doesn't sort by date.

[Majordave]

@noumpere

 

Thank you.  I will go watch it.  I got an email from NAIA Coordinator but I deleted it thinking I could just go to Arbiter and find it easily.  I guess I gotta scroll and search more.  Or quit deleting emails before I have done what they say to do.

 

Coincidentally, back to my original situation this past saturday as described above, both coaches approached us at plate meeting to discuss our take on HBP calls.  i.e. what does batter have to do to get the base versus what will keep them in the box?  They indicated they were frustrated as hell with the enforcement of it.  I said aren't we all.  Old school vs new school views.

 

My partner and I did our best to explain it as we interpreted the rule/had been interpreted for us.........

long story short, it didn't matter.  I called exactly what I saw and exactly how I explained I would call it.  That damn guy saw what he wanted and complained like they always do.

 

Fast forward to Sunday, one of my NAIA assigners (I have four or five of them I can't count that high) sent us an email with instructions to NOT discuss rules interpretations or questions about potential rulings at plate meetings or during games or before games or after games but to instead tell him that my supervisor has directed me to NOT discuss rules interpretations with coaches at anytime. (This was not the umpire supervisor for the NAIA conference I worked Saturday).

 

I don't agree with that blanket statement but I understand as coaches generally only hear what they want as exemplified by my experience on Saturday.  

 

Oh well.  Sometimes you just gotta umpire!

 

Update:  NAIA Video is better than the NCAA rules video regarding HBP.  It uses the original NCAA HBP situation presented then adds more NCAA and MLB videos with voiceover interpretation/explanation. Helps a lot!  Does not really discuss "rolling" into the pitch as Warren describes above.  Shows a couple of batter actually flinching and rolling at last second.  Indicated that is sufficient to justify an award of 1B.  

 

As far as Warren's poll: I voted depends on the location of the pitch.  For me this issue is complex and also somewhat includes the type of pitch.  A slow, hanging curve that the batter just rolls his back to but could have easily backed out of the box will get a "Time!  Batter stay right here!" from me.  A fastball cutting in on the hands with a slight (ever so slight) flinch or pull back at last second by the batter will get a 1B award.

[umpstu]

@noumpere

 

Thank you.  I will go watch it.  I got an email from NAIA Coordinator but I deleted it thinking I could just go to Arbiter and find it easily.  I guess I gotta scroll and search more.  Or quit deleting emails before I have done what they say to do.

 

Coincidentally, back to my original situation this past saturday as described above, both coaches approached us at plate meeting to discuss our take on HBP calls.  i.e. what does batter have to do to get the base versus what will keep them in the box?  They indicated they were frustrated as hell with the enforcement of it.  I said aren't we all.  Old school vs new school views.

 

My partner and I did our best to explain it as we interpreted the rule/had been interpreted for us.........

long story short, it didn't matter.  I called exactly what I saw and exactly how I explained I would call it.  That damn guy saw what he wanted and complained like they always do.

 

Fast forward to Sunday, one of my NAIA assigners (I have four or five of them I can't count that high) sent us an email with instructions to NOT discuss rules interpretations or questions about potential rulings at plate meetings or during games or before games or after games but to instead tell him that my supervisor has directed me to NOT discuss rules interpretations with coaches at anytime. (This was not the umpire supervisor for the NAIA conference I worked Saturday).

 

I don't agree with that blanket statement but I understand as coaches generally only hear what they want as exemplified by my experience on Saturday.  

 

Oh well.  Sometimes you just gotta umpire!

You might of had a coach rolling you and your partner under the bus about your rule conversation.  Rolling isn't necessarily avoiding.  Steve Mattingly instructs that the batter has to make an attempt to get out of the way. 

[Majordave]

I agree.  It truly depends on a lot of factors.  Pitch type, pitch location, pitch speed, pitch movement, batter location, batter actions prior to pitch arriving, batter action after pitch arrives.  Those are a few.  Bottom line it comes down to your judgment as an umpire at that split-second in time in conjunction with your training and experience.  The videos really help.  This discussion and others like it really help.  Reflective thought about the last HBP you called along with your partner's assistance, your supervisor's guidance, the rules themselves.  It is, however, a judgment call taking all the relevant factors into consideration WITHOUT the benefit of any replay other than your own mind's eye and experience.  

 

There can be no blanket statement as to how to rule that applies to EVERY situation you will face.  

[johnnyg08]

Guys, I feel like we're making this more difficult than it needs to be.  

 

Make sure the batter gives you an attempt.  We don't have to judge the quality of the attempt, merely that an attempt was made.

 

Remember, the pitch doesn't belong there in the first place.  

 

If we start judging the quality of the attempt, I think we're going to get ourselves in more trouble than it's worth.

[Majordave]

@johnnyg08

Okay, so with RLI/RLV we might have to rule on "quality" of throw. But with HBP we don't have to judge "quality" of attempt to avoid. I'm so confused. It's just all so darn inconsistent.

Hahahaha. JK. So, once again, sometimes you just gotta umpire.

[johnnyg08]

 sometimes you just gotta umpire.

 

Dave, I think you summed it up right there.  

 

Don't make it hard on yourself.  Keep it easy.  

[Jimurray]

He flinched

[johnnyg08]

He flinched

 

"I had an attempt coach" 

[maineump]

I don't know how they can 'blanket policy' the HBP. Every one of them is a little different. If the hitter moves his front shoulder down and in towards the plate, or his arm/elbow, then you MAY have a reason to keep him there.

If he makes no movement, then we have another MAY keep him there. Every pitch and every hitter are different, we still have to umpire the game.

 

I had one early this year where the coach asked me about the HBP, this happened to me in the pre season. - Right handed pitcher throws a huge curve ball that comes in and strikes the left handed hitter in the back foot. The foot was in the back of the box. The hitter was loading up for the swing and all of the weight was on the back foot, so he could not lift it in my opinion. I told him the hitter would get first base in my opinion. He seemed confused, because the NCAA meeting that he had to attend told him that the hitter would be kept for not trying to avoid. He was told that freezing was not an excuse anymore.

 

This may work itself out in the end. Right now it is a hot topic, the coaches asked for the rule change, and now we take the grief for keeping a batter - seems to be a no-win situation. There is no black and white - it is a judgment call and like I said earlier, we just need to umpire.

[Majordave]

"They" (whoever they are) are trying to reduce or even eliminate umpire judgment out of the game. K-Zone or whatever it's called in pro ball, instant replay in pro and now college televised games.

Attempts at blanket policies like this HBP emphasis/revised rule.

"They" (coaches and owners and administrators?) don't want judgment to play a part in the game if they can help it.

[woodiemiller]

Since may last collegiate post over a month ago all of my college games have been rained/snowed out. Until yesterday.

 

In my game I had a ton of HBP situations.

 

1 guy REALLY tried to legitimately get out of the way but still got pluncked.

2 other guys (1 got hit 2 times in the same AB) others "rolled" with the pitch. IMO "rolling" is not avoiding.

 

Early in the game the first guy who rolled and I kept in the box. The home coach came out and yelled at him that he knows he cant do that any more.

 

The second guy from the visitors rolled for ball 2 and I kept him in the box. And I kept him and caught crap from the visitor HC. I told him I didn't have that as an attempt to avoid being hit. He hollered for a while (did mention he was losing 10-1) and I told him the conversation was over. 

 

Now we have a full count, the pitch plunks him again and again he rolls. I called time and was very deliberate and vocal in saying "Ball 4" to attempt to let it be known I was awarding on balls, not HBP. The coach players and spectators go ape sh!+ because the player did the exact same thing and this time got the base in their mind b/c of HBP.

 

This was not a good situation. 

 

So here's my poll question: Do you consider "rolling" to be avoiding the pitch in accordance to how the NCAA wants the play called?

 

 

It boils down to survive ability.  I am a firm believer in "perception is reality". That is, call what it appears to be. Do not split hairs. If the batter makes it look like he makes any attempt (whether defined or not), give the batter the benefit of the doubt and say he made "an attempt". It just seems that when umpires try to officiate according to the letter of the rule, that is when they get in the most trouble. Do not get to "cute" or "pick too many boogers" with certain things that happen during the course of a baseball game.

[johnnyg08]

It boils down to survive ability.  I am a firm believer in "perception is reality". That is, call what it appears to be. Do not split hairs. If the batter makes it look like he makes any attempt (whether defined or not), give the batter the benefit of the doubt and say he made "an attempt". It just seems that when umpires try to officiate according to the letter of the rule, that is when they get in the most trouble. Do not get to "cute" or "pick too many boogers" with certain things that happen during the course of a baseball game.

Nicely said @woodiemiller

[BretMan]

"They" (whoever they are) are trying to reduce or even eliminate umpire judgment out of the game.

 

But wasn't that what the last HBP rule change was supposed to do- take away all judgment of the batter's "attempt to avoid" if the pitch was inside the batter's box? In that case, "they" were the coaches that bitched and moaned whenever the hit batter rule didn't go their way. They cried that they were getting ripped off by the umpire's poor judgment, so lobbied to have judgment taken out of the equation.

 

What exactly is the new rule (I don't work college games). I tried searching for it, but can't find anything on the web, even after finding several lists of NCAA rule changes. Is this an actual rule change, or an interpretational change? I take it that batter's are no longer given a "free pass" on anything inside the batter's box, regardless of their "attempt to avoid".

 

I'd be happy with switching back to the old/original HBP rule that served us well for over a 100 years!

[noumpere]

 

"They" (whoever they are) are trying to reduce or even eliminate umpire judgment out of the game.

 

But wasn't that what the last HBP rule change was supposed to do- take away all judgment of the batter's "attempt to avoid" if the pitch was inside the batter's box? In that case, "they" were the coaches that bitched and moaned whenever the hit batter rule didn't go their way. They cried that they were getting ripped off by the umpire's poor judgment, so lobbied to have judgment taken out of the equation.

 

What exactly is the new rule (I don't work college games). I tried searching for it, but can't find anything on the web, even after finding several lists of NCAA rule changes. Is this an actual rule change, or a interpretational change? I take it that batter's are no longer given a "free pass" on anything inside the batter's box, regardless of their "attempt to avoid".

 

I'd be happy with switching back to the old/original HBP rule that served us well for over a 100 years!

 

It's an actual change.

 

That's what they did.

[Majordave]

Copy and Paste from NCAA 2015 Pre-Season Bulletin:

 

Batter Must Try to Avoid Pitch What previously appeared in the rule book as a guideline has become a rule. Under new language in Rule 8-2d, A.R. (1), a batter must attempt to avoid being hit by the pitch.

References to the batter “freezing†have been removed from the rule.

The new language simplifies previously provided guidance on how umpires should interpret and officiate the hitby-pitch rule. It also aims to improve safety.

If the ball is outside the strike zone when it touches the batter who has not tried to avoid the pitch, the ball is dead, it shall be called a ball and the batter is not awarded first base.

If the ball is inside the strike zone when it touches the batter who has not tried to avoid the pitch, the ball is dead, it shall be called a strike and the batter is not awarded first base.

 

Play: B1 is in the batter’s box when a pitch is thrown. B1 (a) sticks his elbow out so he is hit by the pitch, (b) stands still and is hit by the pitch, or © moves in such a way that he is able to avoid the pitch. Ruling: in all situations the ball will be dead immediately (a) If the pitch was out of the strike zone, a ball is added to B1’s count. If the pitch was in the strike zone, a strike is added to B1’s count. In (b), its in the umpire judgment if the batter attempted to avoid being hit by the pitch. If yes, then B1 gets first base. If no, and the ball is in the strike zone a strike will be added to B1’s count. If the ball is out of the strike zone, a ball will be added to B1’s count. In ©, B1 takes his base. *

[johnnyg08]

yep