Arkansas Vandy Crazy play at the plate

[noumpere]

The video is back up.  2:37 to say "PU should have started 3BX" (could have been a :30 video).

 

No mention of the baseline issue (or what to do if R2 also tries to score. )

[ricka56]

No mention of the baseline issue

 

It seems that most authoritative individuals (official or not) seem to treat the out of the base path issue as the 3rd rail of umpiring interps.

[MidAmUmp]

No mention of the baseline issue

It seems that most authoritative individuals (official or not) seem to treat the out of the base path issue as the 3rd rail of umpiring interps. So you feel the runner should have been called out for being out of the base line? If so, please explain.

[ricka56]

 

 

No mention of the baseline issue

It seems that most authoritative individuals (official or not) seem to treat the out of the base path issue as the 3rd rail of umpiring interps. So you feel the runner should have been called out for being out of the base line? If so, please explain.

 

Do you mean my thoughts on the possible out of the base path issue ? Refer to post #9.

[MidAmUmp]

No mention of the baseline issue

It seems that most authoritative individuals (official or not) seem to treat the out of the base path issue as the 3rd rail of umpiring interps.So you feel the runner should have been called out for being out of the base line? If so, please explain.

Do you mean my thoughts on the possible out of the base path issue ? Refer to post #9.

You know what I mean. No need to be a smart ass.

[zm1283]

I usually try to use proper terminology, but I've never been a stickler on the whole baseline/basepath thing. Everyone on the field knows what you're talking about when you call it. I guess travel ball coaches who don't have a clue about the rule might be difficult, but they're going to be a pain in your a** no matter what verbiage you use. 

[Rich Ives]

 

 

If, while the catcher was trying to tag the first runner, the other runner from 2B tried to score, what would you have then?

Another play.

 

If that 2nd runner touches the plate while this dance is still going on, I have him out for passing R3. 

 

 

Doesn't the NCAA have essentially the same rule as OBR:  7.12 Unless two are out, the status of a following runner is not affected by a preceding runner’s failure to touch or retouch a base.

[woodiemiller]

Obviously he wasn't in the ideal position to see this, but he knew he got it right when the catcher popped up ready to apply the tag again.

3BLX would have been a great spot to be in.

 

I'm interested to hear if anyone has anything on R3 leaving the dirt circle to avoid a tag.  ?   Once R3 stands up after his initial slide, I think he's then bound by the same rules as between the bases.    Thoughts?

Leaving the dirt to avoid the tag? A runner has 3 feet on each side the moment the defense attempts to make a tag on him. The umpire got all of this correct.

[Richvee]

 

 

 

If, while the catcher was trying to tag the first runner, the other runner from 2B tried to score, what would you have then?

Another play.

 

If that 2nd runner touches the plate while this dance is still going on, I have him out for passing R3. 

 

 

Doesn't the NCAA have essentially the same rule as OBR:  7.12 Unless two are out, the status of a following runner is not affected by a preceding runner’s failure to touch or retouch a base.

 

I already acknowledged in post 49 I was wrong. 

[Richvee]

 

Obviously he wasn't in the ideal position to see this, but he knew he got it right when the catcher popped up ready to apply the tag again.

3BLX would have been a great spot to be in.

 

I'm interested to hear if anyone has anything on R3 leaving the dirt circle to avoid a tag.  ?   Once R3 stands up after his initial slide, I think he's then bound by the same rules as between the bases.    Thoughts?

Leaving the dirt to avoid the tag? A runner has 3 feet on each side the moment the defense attempts to make a tag on him. The umpire got all of this correct.

 

3 feet the moment the defense attempts a tag.. exactly. Again, R3 was in a direct line backwards from the outside line of the RH batter's box when F2 steps towards him to make a tag. R3 takes 3 or 4 steps to his right before heading in the direction of the plate and actually dives for the plate from behind the LH batter's box. I can't  comprehend  how this isn't more than 3 feet from a direct line between the runner and the plate from the time the tag is attempted. 

 

I wish the NCAA would have definitively said this isn't out of the base path and gave an official reason why it isn't. As far as I can see, they only commented on PU's positioning. 

[woodiemiller]

 

 

Obviously he wasn't in the ideal position to see this, but he knew he got it right when the catcher popped up ready to apply the tag again.

3BLX would have been a great spot to be in.

 

I'm interested to hear if anyone has anything on R3 leaving the dirt circle to avoid a tag.  ?   Once R3 stands up after his initial slide, I think he's then bound by the same rules as between the bases.    Thoughts?

Leaving the dirt to avoid the tag? A runner has 3 feet on each side the moment the defense attempts to make a tag on him. The umpire got all of this correct.

 

3 feet the moment the defense attempts a tag.. exactly. Again, R3 was in a direct line backwards from the outside line of the RH batter's box when F2 steps towards him to make a tag. R3 takes 3 or 4 steps to his right before heading in the direction of the plate and actually dives for the plate from behind the LH batter's box. I can't  comprehend  how this isn't more than 3 feet from a direct line between the runner and the plate from the time the tag is attempted. 

 

I wish the NCAA would have definitively said this isn't out of the base path and gave an official reason why it isn't. As far as I can see, they only commented on PU's positioning. 

 

3 feet is usually about an arms length, when in doubt, the benefit goes to the runner (even if I LOVE calling "Outs").

[ricka56]

 

3 feet is usually about an arms length, when in doubt, the benefit goes to the runner

 

When a runner is caught dead to rights, I think the benefit of the doubt goes to the defense. If 3 feet is an arm's length, then how do all these fielders miss the tag ? 

 

The only way that anyone can say that he is within 3 feet of a line between him and the base is if you believe that the instant the tag is missed, the 3 foot restriction no longer applies (no matter where his immediate  tag avoidance momentum takes him). In which case, I don't know when 7.08(a) (or the NCAA equivalent) would ever apply.

[MidAmUmp]

Something for you experts to ponder...

At what point does this play become an appeal play?

[Richvee]

Something for you experts to ponder...

At what point does this play become an appeal play?

I don't know if NCAA has a different interp, but I do know OBR says the runner may be put out by the fielder touching home plate and appealing to the umpire when the runner is on his way to the bench (making no effort to return) and the fielder would be required to chase him. 

[Jimurray]

Something for you experts to ponder...

At what point does this play become an appeal play?

Not when the commentator said in the original video.

[noumpere]

 

Something for you experts to ponder...

At what point does this play become an appeal play?

I don't know if NCAA has a different interp, but I do know OBR says the runner may be put out by the fielder touching home plate and appealing to the umpire when the runner is on his way to the bench (making no effort to return) and the fielder would be required to chase him. 

 

I think the NCAA interp is apprx. the same.  I posted the rule up above.  Edit: Post 42.

[Forest Ump]

Paronto's Rules Interpretations from April, 2015

•  8-5a, Arkansas at Vandy, Home Plate Baseline (Watch on Hudl or on NCAA site on the Arbiter)
•  
• A base runner is allowed a 3-foot lane directly to his next base, or last base. Any movement outside that three-foot lane to avoid a tag constitutes “out of the basepath†and the runner should be called out. This path may start beyond a base or plate and returns to the plate when the base runner has passed the plate or base

[ricka56]

Paronto's Rules Interpretations from April, 2015

•  8-5a, Arkansas at Vandy, Home Plate Baseline (Watch on Hudl or on NCAA site on the Arbiter)
•  
• A base runner is allowed a 3-foot lane directly to his next base, or last base. Any movement outside that three-foot lane to avoid a tag constitutes “out of the basepath†and the runner should be called out. This path may start beyond a base or plate and returns to the plate when the base runner has passed the plate or base

 

This excerpt appears to only restate the rule and does not clarify the specifics of the Ark/Vandy play nor in general the distance his momentum took him immediately after the tag attempt. I don't have access to the link given above. Did they opine on this specific play with respect to out of the base path issue?

[Majordave]

@ricka56

Nope. What you see posted is all there is.

[johnnyg08]

It's a seven page interpretation document on a variety of topics.  

 

The piece the member listed above is all I saw with respect to the Arkansas/Vandy play.

[zm1283]

Video Bulletin #2 was posted today. They went over this clip again and Hiler's opinion is that the runner was clearly out of the basepath on the second tag attempt by the catcher when the catcher has his back to the mound. He says he thinks he may have even violated the basepath rule on the initial tag attempt.

[johnnyg08]

Video Bulletin 2 for your viewing pleasure:

[noumpere]

It's nice of them to put up the video bulletin, but it was all (?) a repeat of the other videos that had been posted.

[ricka56]

Video Bulletin #2 was posted today. They went over this clip again and Hiler's opinion is that the runner was clearly out of the basepath on the second tag attempt by the catcher when the catcher has his back to the mound. He says he thinks he may have even violated the basepath rule on the initial tag attempt.

 

"certainly...without a doubt"...I take back my comment about out-of-the-basepath sitches being the 3rd rail of umpire interps. NCAA is the best at using video to explain their rules.

[zm1283]

I will say that I don't agree entirely with Hiler's interpretation. On the second tag attempt, I have the runner going backwards away from the tag just as much as he goes sideways to avoid it. I don't think he goes three feet either way.

 

Other than starting at 3BLX like the video commentary said, I don't think this umpire could have done much differently.