FPSR Mechanics for HP

[zm1283]

I would bet that at least 95 percent of the FPSR violations I have ever called have been for slides outside the base to either side. 

[Jimurray]

Sorry for the confusion...yes the OP was supposed to read lone runner at 1B.  

 

We've debated this repeatedly and have pretty much left it up to the individual umpires to pre-game and decide how that crew will work it.  I see advantages and disadvantages to both sides.  Personally for me, the only two calls I'm ever going to make related to FPSR at 2B if I am the plate ump, are the hands being thrown up or contact beyond the bag (NFHS).  For me, I've decided that I can get both of those from the 3B side of the field.

Thanks for all who have chimed in to share.  All great points and discussion!  Love this board!

 

You're free to do as you wish, but at the FED level you will rarely see anybody sliding through the bag.  Furthermore, if illegal action is going to occur it's most likely to occur on the sides of the base, not through the base.  You can get "hands up" or through the base from the concession stand.  Your position on the field really won't matter much for those.

Agree. 1B side gives you a better angle for slides not directly into the bag.

Regurgitating Childress, if you are going to the 1B side why not call the play at 1B and let the BU call everything at 2B?

[BuckeyeMike]

This is the first time I've ever heard of this concept and I LOVE IT.   It's too bad he couldn't convince the powers that be, to change the mechanic.

 

I know I've had a lot less accuracy in the B position on calls at 1B when they come via a DP throw from 2B. 

 

I think I'm going to try this out this summer with more veteran partners. 

[MadMax]

This is to @MidAmUmp and anyone else who would like to impart their wisdom...

 

With this exact situation in motion (R1, you are PU), and for the sake of the play, it is hit to either F3 or F5. You travel up the 1BS of the mound to see all that we've listed, and to see pulled-foot / swipe-tag at 1B if the relay throw is made on BR. In this case, though, there is an overthrow of F4/F6 at 2B and ball travels to OF. R1 gets up to continue running... 

 

Q1. Where are we, as PU, to go next?

Q2. Who has BR touch at 1B?

Q3. I'm reading that we are to take R1 to 3B, because BU is now responsible for the BR... So where to go for that? This (an honest question, not facetious) concerns me, because, invariably, there may be an overthrow (or really late throw) at 3B from the OF and R1 is headed Home... So how best do you anticipate this and prepare yourself?

 

Q3 would be a rarity, but there is that mechanic built in for a hit to F9 being fielded and thrown to F3 (or, a 1BL flare that causes the BU to "go out"), wherein the BU stays put and you (as PU) take the BR to 2B and on to 3B if it's completely bungled. The BU then rotates Home. In this case, though, with R1 and a BR, the BU kinda-can't rotate Home.

[MidAmUmp]

This is to @MidAmUmp and anyone else who would like to impart their wisdom...

 

With this exact situation in motion (R1, you are PU), and for the sake of the play, it is hit to either F3 or F5. You travel up the 1BS of the mound to see all that we've listed, and to see pulled-foot / swipe-tag at 1B if the relay throw is made on BR. In this case, though, there is an overthrow of F4/F6 at 2B and ball travels to OF. R1 gets up to continue running... 

 

Q1. Where are we, as PU, to go next?

Q2. Who has BR touch at 1B?

Q3. I'm reading that we are to take R1 to 3B, because BU is now responsible for the BR... So where to go for that? This (an honest question, not facetious) concerns me, because, invariably, there may be an overthrow (or really late throw) at 3B from the OF and R1 is headed Home... So how best do you anticipate this and prepare yourself?

 

Q3 would be a rarity, but there is that mechanic built in for a hit to F9 being fielded and thrown to F3 (or, a 1BL flare that causes the BU to "go out"), wherein the BU stays put and you (as PU) take the BR to 2B and on to 3B if it's completely bungled. The BU then rotates Home. In this case, though, with R1 and a BR, the BU kinda-can't rotate Home.

1. Home

2. Base Umpire

3. I'm not covering 3rd base in 2-man unless the ball reaches the outfield on a hit.

[noumpere]

 

1. Home

2. Base Umpire

3. I'm not covering 3rd base in 2-man unless the ball reaches the outfield on a hit.

 

Exactly.  It surprises me how many umpres forget this part of the mechanic.

 

It's just not that hard.  (Even if the pro and CCA mechanics have it otherwise).

[MadMax]

This isn't asked / said to be impertinent... Was my presented situation understood? On a double-play attempt there is an overthrow of 2B _into the outfield_, such that it engages F8 or F7 to retrieve the ball... As would a hit to the outfield.

I understand a PU's responsibility is HP, but a situation like this is leaving something, somewhere potentially uncovered.

[Jimurray]

I would bet that at least 95 percent of the FPSR violations I have ever called have been for slides outside the base to either side.

What percent have you called as BU. My experience is that I've seen most of them as BU in that they took out the pivot man.

[johnnyg08]

 

I would bet that at least 95 percent of the FPSR violations I have ever called have been for slides outside the base to either side.

What percent have you called as BU. My experience is that I've seen most of them as BU in that they took out the pivot man.

 

 

 

Up until last year I got them as BU.  Last year I think I have four FPSR's at the FED level and three of them I got as PU.  

[Jimurray]

I would bet that at least 95 percent of the FPSR violations I have ever called have been for slides outside the base to either side.

What percent have you called as BU. My experience is that I've seen most of them as BU in that they took out the pivot man.

 

 

Up until last year I got them as BU.  Last year I think I have four FPSR's at the FED level and three of them I got as PU.

What side did you get them from? Why didn't your BU get them? BTW, if the slide is illegal but does not take out the pivot man is it a FPSR violation and would you call it.

[labguy1971]

My association has us 3rd base side for FPSR.   No problems so far.  But I can see pulled foot at 1st and swipetag could pose a problem.  Will pay close attention to that next few games.

[MidAmUmp]

This isn't asked / said to be impertinent... Was my presented situation understood? On a double-play attempt there is an overthrow of 2B _into the outfield_, such that it engages F8 or F7 to retrieve the ball... As would a hit to the outfield.

I understand a PU's responsibility is HP, but a situation like this is leaving something, somewhere potentially uncovered.

You asked me to "impart my wisdom". Yet you seem to disagree with my wisdom. Very similar to...

Me: Ball!

Coach: Where's that pitch?

Me: Down.

Coach: That's not down.

Me: Then don't ask.

 

I'm not trying to "big time" anyone here, but you have to understand I, personally, don't work 2-man until the summer. Every game I have this spring is either 3- or 4-man. So, I for me 3-man is second nature. When I have to work 2-man I essentially work it like 3-man. I don't rotate unless the ball is HIT to the outfield and I don't rotate with runners on 1st & 3rd because I don't want to screw up, think I'm working 3-man and realize too late that I should have rotated because it's just natural for me to stay home in those situations.

 

Having said that, we all must understand 2-man is essentially a series of compromises. Splitting the difference, trying to keep an umpire ahead of the runner, sacrificing distance for angles, and most importantly -- playing the odds.

 

I'm sorry if some will disagree with me on this and I understand at the lower levels "3rd World Plays" are more likely than at the level I work, but my definition of a "3rd World Play" is anything that goes against the odds.

 

In the situation you present - R1, ground ball to 1st or 3rd baseman (I'm going to say 3rd baseman for this example) who throws the ball to the outfield on the front end of a double play, R1 advances to 3rd - let's evaluate the odds...

 

The 3rd baseman has airmailed the ball to the outfield, R1 either gets up and goes or continues running to 3rd, B/R is rounding 1st base.

What is the CF or RF going to do? Best odds = hit the cutoff man

What is the B/R going to do? Best odds = Round 1st and read the throw (if cutoff man throws to 3rd, he may take 2nd)

What is the cutoff man going to do? Best odds = Cut & hold (why would he risk throwing to 3rd and risk the B/R advancing to 2nd? At most there is only 1 out in this situation. They would rather have runners at the corners with still a chance of a DP to get out of the inning than to have 2 runners in scoring position with 0 or 1 outs.)

 

Taking those things into consideration, why can't the base umpire stay in the working area (where he already is), split the difference and read the throw? Why should the plate umpire rotate to 3rd when the odds say there isn't going to be a play?

 

Let's take it a step further and play "what if"...

What if...You rotate, there is a play at 3rd and it's overthrown? Now you have to race R1 back to the plate and take the play from fair territory.

What if...You rotate, there is a play at 3rd, B/R advances to 2nd, the defense then makes a play on B/R and R1 now tries to score. You're taking a throw from 2nd from inside the infield, over your shoulder, and you have nothing in front of you.

 

For all of these reasons, I choose to not rotate on a throwing error on the front end of a double play.

 

I would encourage all of you to do what your associations and/or manuals tell you to do, not necessarily what I would do.

[grayhawk]

We only rotate on hits to the outfield. On overthrows, we are at home.

[noumpere]

This isn't asked / said to be impertinent... Was my presented situation understood? On a double-play attempt there is an overthrow of 2B _into the outfield_, such that it engages F8 or F7 to retrieve the ball... As would a hit to the outfield.

I understand a PU's responsibility is HP, but a situation like this is leaving something, somewhere potentially uncovered.

I understood it.

 

The difference is that on the throw, by the time the ball gets to the outfield, R1 is almost at second, and PU is part of the way up the line at first.  And, most of the time, the play is properly completed -- so it's better for PU to be "ready" for the FPSR and pulled foot /swipe tag and to make BU adjust to any second play, than it is for PU to be ready for the second paly and make him adjust for the FPSR and play at first.