HBP scenarios

[Umpire in Chief]

There is new wording and a point of emphasis again on batters being hit by the pitch. They removed the verbiage of being frozen and went back to making an attempt to avoid.

 

Here's my question how much are you looking for as an attempt to avoid? I had 2 scenarios Saturday.

 

1. Lefty batter a bad breaking ball is coming in at his rt foot. I have him lifting his foot as he's being hit. Just for reference his foot at most got 2" off the ground when he was hit. In my mind, he made an attempt and I award 1st. Defensive HC comes out to me and goes on that "That's a new rule...", "He has to avoid the pitch...", "Not only that he moved into it.." I listen to him. Apparently from the bench it looked like he lifted his foot and put it in the path of the pitch. My only reply to the coach is "I know the rule your talking about, but I had him moving his foot to avoid and definitely don't have him intentionally putting it out to be hit."
2. Righty batter fastball high and inside. Pitch is definitely in the batters box. Batter turns his shoulders and rolls not to avoid it but to take it. I kept him in the box with no argument from the player, he actually gave me a smirking smile as he walked off the hit, but the coach went off and said he'd turned and was trying to avoid. My only reply to the coach was, "I didn't see that as a legitimate attempt to avoid the pitch." In the past I would have awarded this batter because the pitch was in the batters box and he did turn. But that's not what they want any more. 

I am going probably err in favor of the batter as long as they give me something other than rolling, not necessarily into the pitch but to be hit in a more favorable location. I think I have pretty good judgement as to when a batter is legitimately trying to avoid and when the batter is trying to take one. And it's one of those things you know when you see, especially the more experienced you are. 

[KenBAZ]

My HS association had training for us on this POE and I had an issue with exactly your second situation. Kids are taught to roll in to avoid getting hurt by the FB in. This is not the same as sticking an elbow out. Turning in to take the pitch on the back or butt rather then face, hands chest or groin is a safety thing that should be learned from an early age. Trying to back up from a running FB is going to get kids hurt.

[Rich Ives]

My HS association had training for us on this POE and I had an issue with exactly your second situation. Kids are taught to roll in to avoid getting hurt by the FB in. This is not the same as sticking an elbow out. Turning in to take the pitch on the back or butt rather then face, hands chest or groin is a safety thing that should be learned from an early age. Trying to back up from a running FB is going to get kids hurt.

 

This ^^^^^^

[MidAmUmp]

With all do respect, this is an NCAA point of emphasis that Warren is asking about (and posted accordingly)...I don't care what a HS assoc. said and I don't care what a coach thinks.

 

This is going to be a fiasco. There is going to be too much inconsistency with this. What's considered an attempt today will have someone staying at the plate next weekend.

 

What I would say is - as long as they don't freeze and as long as they don't try to get hit, I'm probably going to let them go. But every situation is different.

[Majordave]

Amen. To both the keep high school association interpretations out of this conversation topic. (No offense but this is topic is in the COLLEGIATE baseball forum.) And to the fiasco comment and how you intend to handle it. I hope I can be as consistent in applying that logic with this new rule as I want to be. My standard comment is "coach's name here, in my judgment he did not attempt to avoid/he did make a valid atrempt to avoid." As the case may be. I'm pretty direct and forceful when I call it and I'm equally direct when I explain it. So far, so good.

It is a judgment call and sometimes you just gotta umpire.

[noumpere]

Usually(?) when a player is trying to avoid, he not only rolls, but there is movement of the arm / upper body away from the plate and / or a step away from the plate with the back foot..

 

Just a roll with the shoulders / upper body is usually (?) not an attempt to avoid, but an attempt to take it in a better spot.

[bam]

Sometimes, taking it "in a better spot" is all the batter can do. 

 

I don't get this whole thing.  What prompted the rule "clarifications"? 

[Replacematt]

I'm calling this the same as I do in OBR. He's getting first unless I know he tried to make a HBP.

[johnnyg08]

The coaches wanted this rule.

My job is to enforce what the coaches want (with respect to the rules that they agreed upon). Give me an attempt, I'm not going to judge the quality of your attempt...just give me something to work with and I'm going to send you down to first base.

I'm calling this the same as I do in OBR. He's getting first unless I know he tried to make a HBP.

Agree with this completely. Yes, I'm not going to overthink this.

[bam]

The coaches want this rule until their next recruitment class of pitchers has better control. 

[Rich Ives]

Usually(?) when a player is trying to avoid, he not only rolls, but there is movement of the arm / upper body away from the plate and / or a step away from the plate with the back foot..

 

Just a roll with the shoulders / upper body is usually (?) not an attempt to avoid, but an attempt to take it in a better spot.

 

BS         .

[johnnyg08]

It is both...an attempt to avoid and an attempt to take the pitch in a better spot.

[MidAmUmp]

The coaches wanted this rule.

Not according to what I've heard. I have yet to hear a coach say it was suggested, mentioned, recommended, complained about, etc., etc., etc.

[johnnyg08]

 

The coaches wanted this rule.

Not according to what I've heard. I have yet to hear a coach say it was suggested, mentioned, recommended, complained about, etc., etc., etc.

 

I heard with my own ears the Div 1 coordinator say that this is what the coaches signed off on at a clinic this past weekend. I do not know if it was unanimous vote or not.

[Majordave]

As MidAmUmp said. They complain about it like we umpires wrote the rule. Most coaches don't really read the rules. But even fewer of them understand the rules revision process and that they have a rep(s) on the committee.

[zm1283]

The coaches wanted this rule.

My job is to enforce what the coaches want (with respect to the rules that they agreed upon). Give me an attempt, I'm not going to judge the quality of your attempt...just give me something to work with and I'm going to send you down to first base.

I'm calling this the same as I do in OBR. He's getting first unless I know he tried to make a HBP.

Agree with this completely. Yes, I'm not going to overthink this.

 

 

Yep, me too.

 

I was on the bases in a scrimmage yesterday and a batter got hit in the foot kind of like Warren's first situation above. The guy working the plate sent him to first. I'm not sure what else the batter is supposed to do. I'm not going to make a batter do jumping jacks to get out of the way of a pitch thrown at his shoe. That would also be bailing the pitcher out for throwing a terrible pitch. 

 

There was nothing wrong with the old rule. 

[zm1283]

 

 

The coaches wanted this rule.

Not according to what I've heard. I have yet to hear a coach say it was suggested, mentioned, recommended, complained about, etc., etc., etc.

 

I heard the Div 1 coordinator say that this is what the coaches signed off on at a clinic this past weekend. I do not know if it was unanimous vote or not.

 

 

How are they just signing off on it at a clinic in February when the rule has already been changed? Their national convention/clinic is in January anyway.

[KenBAZ]

Sorry to mix in the HS POE here. Across all rule sets I'll stick with this like a half swing. "Coach in my judgment he offered." "Coach in my judgment he made an attempt to avoid getting hit."

[johnnyg08]

 

 

 

The coaches wanted this rule.

Not according to what I've heard. I have yet to hear a coach say it was suggested, mentioned, recommended, complained about, etc., etc., etc.

 

I heard the Div 1 coordinator say that this is what the coaches signed off on at a clinic this past weekend. I do not know if it was unanimous vote or not.

 

 

How are they just signing off on it at a clinic in February when the rule has already been changed? Their national convention/clinic is in January anyway.

 

 

I'm sorry...I wrote that incorrectly.  Allow me to rephrase...I heard George say that the coaches signed off on this rule change.  I heard him say this at an umpire clinic that I attended on Saturday, Feb 7.  

[Haid D' Salaami]

I've already called 7 games.. 3 D2..and 4 JUCO.. i had to tell a few coaches about the new rule, they had no idea ( or at least they said that)... I had 2 HBP one on a check swing, the other in the leg way in the batters box... 1 guy i keep in the box cause he did roll into it.

 

like midamump said, your judgment is differnet than mine.

 

but to the guy who kept the batter in the box on a high and inside fastball that he turned and took it...

 

Look sometimes you dont have time to turn and get away, sometimes it is all you can do... but did the batter intentionally roll into it? If not.. give him 1st.

[catsbackr]

At our association meeting, we were told to remember the phrases, "..attempt to avoid" and "...initiated contact."

 

If the ball is in the middle of the batter's box, it's kind of hard not award first.

[Majordave]

I heard it explained by a coach to his players this way; "you gotta look and act like a lil' bitch if you want the base. So flinch or turn away or something.

That's hilarious. But true.

[lawump]

I was at a Div. 1 "round robin tournament" (4 D-1 teams all playing each other over the weekend (basically a host school and three snowbird teams).  Anyways, in the locker room, one of the umpires stated that he had NOT allowed a batter to take first base after being hit by a pitch three times already this season.  I asked him if he had had any arguments.  He said, "no," that each time the coach came out to ask him what he had.  He responded by saying, "your batter froze."  To which each coach responded, "I hate this new rule," and walked away.

 

I haven't had any controversial HBP...yet.  I'll post if I do.  I have 3 Div. 1 plate jobs next weekend (sigh), so maybe I'll be posting next week at this time, LOL.