Clarifying a rule with another umpire

[johnnyg08]

I met a guy at our clinic yesterday who I feel had a pretty major misunderstanding of a rule. 

 

There's a chance that at some point we will work together.

 

When I tried to explain it to him he blew me off in a condescending manner and in as many words stated that I didn't know what I was talking about.

 

I'm looking for advice on how to point out the flaws in his reasoning without coming off as a blowhard know-it-all because that's not my intent.

 

Of course, the path of least resistance is to simply do nothing.  

 

I've thought about playing it like I'm agreeing with him and asking him to clarify for me asking him questions about certain things written in the rule book...hoping that he'll figure out that he's wrong on his own.  

 

I think the guy has some credibility with the group so I feel it's important that he's correct when he's talking w/ people.

 

 

Please offer your advice.  

 

 

 

 

[Guest roothog66]

I have a question about this. True, the pitcher must have the ball fo it to be put into play. However, with the hidden ball trick, isn't the object to make the runner think the ball is in play? What I mean, is when done as intended (but improperly) does the ump even know the pitcher doesn't have the ball? Pitcher gets on the mound and puts his hand in the glove, do you call it into play or do you need to actually SEE the ball? Not to mention times when play was never made dead.

[maven]

I have a question about this. True, the pitcher must have the ball fo it to be put into play. However, with the hidden ball trick, isn't the object to make the runner think the ball is in play? What I mean, is when done as intended (but improperly) does the ump even know the pitcher doesn't have the ball? Pitcher gets on the mound and puts his hand in the glove, do you call it into play or do you need to actually SEE the ball? Not to mention times when play was never made dead.

 

The umpire by rule cannot make the ball live until F1 is on the rubber with the ball. THINKING F1 has the ball is not sufficient: if he doesn't have the ball, it never becomes live, even though the umpire might say "Play."

 

Or: the umpire saying "Play" WORKS and makes the ball live only when F1 has the ball.

 

I don't necessarily have to see the ball, I have to be right that F1 has it.

 

If the ball did not become dead, then you can have a hidden ball trick.

[MadMax]

As many Rulebook Casenotes demonstrate, the hidden ball trick is executed while the ball is live (in play). This could be as simple as recovering after a single, and losing track of where the ball is. You stick your batting gloves in your pocket, get the signal set from your 1BC, and then take a step off the bag, not realizing that F3 has had the ball the entire time. Where's F1 during this? Depends on the rules set for specifics, but the general answer is F1 cannot be preparing to pitch (without the ball).

Addressing your situation, Guest Roothog, if you, as the PU, are anticipating F1 to prepare to pitch, receive signs, come set, etc., and you notice the pitcher doesn't have the ball, it's an immediate Balk call. Alternately, you may see F3 (or the appropriate fielder) make his move and attempt his tag on the runner – you should take immediate note of where F1 is, in relation to the ruleset you are using. If he's in violation of the ruleset, without the ball, it's an immediate Balk call, negating any safe/out call on the runner.

@johnnyg08 's topic has to do with what you rule / allow while the ball is dead, prior to making it live. His point is that is logically impossible to perform the hidden ball trick coming out of a dead ball, because in order to make it live again, the umpire has to put the ball back in play. And the only way we (as umpires) should put the ball back in play is when the criteria have been met, the most poignant being F1 ready to pitch with the ball in his possession.

If a team is trying to pull the hidden ball trick out of a dead ball, and I'm PU, I'll call their bluff. If F1 is staying off the mound, for example, while I'm directing him to get back on the mound so I can call "Play!", I'll already have my suspicions (I was a catcher for nearly twenty years, I saw _alot_), and I'll say something like, "Is that ball alright?" If the HBT is on, F1 will typically look like I caught him with his hand in the cookie jar, and then look to F3 to toss him the (real) ball.

The ball cannot be made live again unless it's present in F1's possession.

EDIT: @maven once again types faster than me and uses less words.

[ricka56]

BU can keep this from becoming an issue..."hey, meat, give the ball back to the pitcher".

[Majordave]

"Stop calling me meat. I drive a Porsche. What do you drive?"

[johnnyg08]

I think another point that guys are missing is the balk piece that is the penalty...I think somebody mentioned it earlier.  

 

You simply can't balk F1 when the umpire erroneously puts the ball in play because by rule you can't put the ball in play until the pitcher has the ball in his possession (and the other stuff). 

 

If the ball is not live, you can't have a balk.  One person said to me, "well, the moment I point the ball live, that's what we balk him when we find out that he doesn't have the ball"

 

The flaw in that argument is that by rule the ball can't be made live to balk F1 b/c by rule F1 needs to have the ball (and the other stuff) in order for the ball to become live.

 

If an umpire chooses that path, he's calling a balk during a dead ball.  The umpire misapplied a rule.  The first rule misapplication deals with improperly putting the ball in play when F1 didn't have the ball in his possession (and the other stuff)...the second misapplication would then be calling a dead ball balk.  Even if the umpire thinks the pitcher has the ball, only to find out that he doesn't, we cannot penalize the defense because by rule the ball is not yet live.  

[Jimurray]

I think another point that guys are missing is the balk piece that is the penalty...I think somebody mentioned it earlier.  

 

You simply can't balk F1 when the umpire erroneously puts the ball in play because by rule you can't put the ball in play until the pitcher has the ball in his possession (and the other stuff). 

 

If the ball is not live, you can't have a balk.  One person said to me, "well, the moment I point the ball live, that's what we balk him when we find out that he doesn't have the ball"

 

The flaw in that argument is that by rule the ball can't be made live to balk F1 b/c by rule F1 needs to have the ball (and the other stuff) in order for the ball to become live.

 

If an umpire chooses that path, he's calling a balk during a dead ball.  The umpire misapplied a rule.  The first rule misapplication deals with improperly putting the ball in play when F1 didn't have the ball in his possession (and the other stuff)...the second misapplication would then be calling a dead ball balk.  Even if the umpire thinks the pitcher has the ball, only to find out that he doesn't, we cannot penalize the defense because by rule the ball is not yet live.

Just being argumentative. I don't see a balk listed as being one of the things that can't happen during a dead ball. I don't see an IP or ejection for doctoring the ball as not happening during a dead ball. In fact, OBR might balk a doctored ball during a dead ball. I'm not sure.

But the guys you're trying to convince have not read a rulebook in recent times until you told them they were wrong. Amazingly they now find unrelated verbiage in the the book that they think proves their point.

An example being you telling a fellow ump that no, he was wrong to balk the pitcher for throwing to F6 off of 2B with R2. He will find a rule book and find two examples of why it was a balk. One of which would not be a balk anyway.

I agree it's not a balk. If it was balked its not a bad thing since the balked team knows they shouldn't do that anymore. My previous example balked in a run and nobody blinked.

[johnnyg08]

Thank you for your points.  While I don't think I agree, I can see where you're coming from.

 

The issue that some could have with improper enforcement is IF it happens against that team again and enforcement is different, now that crew has to attempt to explain to that coach why a previous crew balked his team...even though nobody said anything the first time (obviously because neither of them really knew the rule).  As umpires gain a positive reputation with teams, they gain a certain amount of trust that they know what they're doing.  Most times it's good for us that coaches trust us and just let us work.  

 

I would counter your point with the penalty for a balk:  Penalty for A through M - Balk.  The ball becomes dead and each runner must advance one base.  If the ball becomes dead, it had to be live in order for it to become dead.

 

As for a foreign substance, the penalty for those is a warn and eject.  I feel that the foreign substance rule isn't the same type of rule with respect to the balk rule. 

 

I don't think any of us on here would eject the pitcher the second time he took dirt from the mound to rub up the brand new baseball that just got thrown in from the home team's dugout.  By rule, you could eject him on his second offense, but I think we all agree that by doing so would be picking up the smelly end of the stick...Big Time.  

[Sayhey]

Things can happen while the ball is dead. A balk is not one of them. An out is not one of them. You can't fix stubborn.

The umpire that blew you off will run into a coach with deep rules knowledge and then he will learn a painful lesson.

Things can happen while the ball is dead. A balk is not one of them. An out is not one of them. You can't fix stubborn.

The umpire that blew you off will run into a coach with deep rules knowledge and then he will learn a painful lesson.

[Majordave]

@Sayhey

Is there an echo in here? Or did you mean to say it twice like that?

[johnnyg08]

@Sayhey

Is there an echo in here? Or did you mean to say it twice like that?

 

MaybeMaybe

[Jimurray]

Things can happen while the ball is dead. A balk is not one of them. An out is not one of them. You can't fix stubborn.

The umpire that blew you off will run into a coach with deep rules knowledge and then he will learn a painful lesson.Things can happen while the ball is dead. A balk is not one of them. An out is not one of them. You can't fix stubborn.

The umpire that blew you off will run into a coach with deep rules knowledge and then he will learn a painful lesson.

The rules do not say what can happen during a dead ball. They do say what can't happen during a dead ball and a balk isn't one of them. That being said, I like @johnnyg08's inference from the balk rule.

I would hope that the stubborn umpire would run into a defensive coach with deep rules knowledge who while knowing the rules executed the HBT improperly.

Or he would run into an offensive coach with deep rules knowledge that would come out and protest that the run you just balked in was illegal because the ball was dead.

Do you think either would happen?

[johnnyg08]

I don't think an offensive coach would ever argue an umpire giving his team a run.

[Jimurray]

I don't think an offensive coach would ever argue an umpire giving his team a run.

So we are left with a defensive coach that knows the rules and tries the HBT during a dead ball. When our unsuspecting umpire balks it the knowing coach says you can't balk it, I was hoping you didn't know the rule and would call the runner out. Since you don't know the rule you shouldn't balk it either.

[Sayhey]

Major Dave. I bumped the button twice. I bumped the button twice. I love the hidden ball trick. I had a 2nd baseman wink at me and show me the ball. I didn't wink back at him. Ball was live and the pitcher was on the grass.

R-2 walked off 2nd base while listening to his 3rd base coach. Gotcha! Third base coach should have known where the ball was. Wasn't there a college World Series game where an umpire was fooled? I think L.S.U. Was playing.

[johnnyg08]

I remember that play.  I don't know if it was CWS, but it was a maybe a regional or super regional.  

[johnnyg08]

 

I don't think an offensive coach would ever argue an umpire giving his team a run.

So we are left with a defensive coach that knows the rules and tries the HBT during a dead ball. When our unsuspecting umpire balks it the knowing coach says you can't balk it, I was hoping you didn't know the rule and would call the runner out. Since you don't know the rule you shouldn't balk it either.

 

 

Yep, I understand the point you're making.  Funny thing about this particular umpire is that we actually were having a pretty adult-like email discussion about the play.  The last email in the discussion came from me basically saying that if the umpire erroneously puts the ball in play when by rule it shouldn't have been put in play, the umpire has misapplied a rule and that if the ball was not live by rule, then we can't have a balk either.   I think he believes that it's the pointing the ball into play that make the ball live, while that's part of it, pointing the ball in play doesn't make the ball live by rule unless the requirements of NCAA 6-6 are met.

 

He hasn't replied back to that one yet. 

[JaxRolo]

I am late to this one and haven't read all the posts but this is pretty basic rule. It seems the there are people like that in every group. Especially the supposedly "association experts" that haven't had any formal training themselves for several years.

 

Some of the things I hear them say in our association is so outdated and just wrong.

[Majordave]

I agree with you Rolo in terms of high school and youth baseball associations but it's rare in college baseball. What I find is that some guys just read and comprehend certain rules differently. Then personal pride gets in the way and you have disagreements that shouldn't exist. The tests and training the NCAA offers/requires every year force you to really read and parcel out then apply or try to apply the rulebook. They don't always get it right with wording of questions on the test but you learn it. It's just impossible to cover every possible scenario and situation every year.

I think the controversy and rancor these difficult "knotty problems", as they used to call them, offer us helps us all get better. I know that if I can keep my pride out if it I learn more from my failures and mistakes. Unfortunately, with so much at stake in some of the upper level college games umpires can't afford to make very many mistakes. High pressure situations, lots of video and second guessing of your calls and decisions. The best thing is the crew conferencing changes. Two (or more) heads are almost always a better thing. (Unless your partners are Larry and Curly).

Unfortunately, we all know someone like Johnnyg08 is dealing with. Hell, some of us may be him sometimes.

Just my thoughts.

[Sayhey]

Good thoughts major Dave. I bowed my neck on a balk call last year. My partner had it right and I was wrong. Pride can make an ass out of all of us. I need to do better at being humble and listening. I bought 4 Fireballs for this umpire after our first meeting. We are good now. Pitcher stepped off back of rubber and threw to 1st baseman 20 feet off bag. I thought the pitcher was still in contact. Good lesson

[Recontra]

I can tell by the responses to the OP (how to reach this misguided college umpire) that you all are very experienced umpires with many years experience. I'm starting my 3rd year of high school ball, and I'd consider myself a reasonably intelligent person. I read the rules and the casebook more than once each year, I read what you guys say, I ask questions online, I ask questions at our association trainings, I ask questions pre and post game with more experienced partners, I buy rounds of scotch and beers for more experienced umpires so I can learn from them--that's a cheap clinic for me, even if it's good single malt. I go to at least two clinics a year (this past fall went to the Classic in Tucson--trust me, I spent a solid 3 figures buying J.E. and Mike and some of the other instructors Jack & Cokes and beers in the hotel bar--and it was some of the best umpire training money I've ever spent). 

 

But there's still times when I think I've got a rule or rules down, and then somebody pushes me on it to challenge me, and then I realize I knew a lot less than I thought (I'm continuing to learn how much I don't know and still have to learn).  Happened just today on this site--some guest from Australia asked a question about why a batter wouldn't be out on a foul back. And I'm now left in my own mind with:  "Because, he's not out--that's just the way it is." 

 

Sometimes, rookie boneheads like me get mental blocks. The rules are complicated, interrelated, and while many of them are interpreted literally, many aren't. Many rules aren't even in the book, yet we all know they're the rules of play. Giving this guy the benefit of the doubt (i.e. assuming he's not really an arrogant close minded ignorant prick--and a disrespectful one at that), it just never may have occurred to him how the "live ball" rule and the "balk rules" interplayed with each other--and I'd also suggest that for some new umpires (me included), it wouldn't naturally occur to us that if an umpire puts a ball in play that couldn't be put back into play yet under the rules, that's a misapplication of the rules, and not only that, but the ball was therefore never back in play.  I'd suggest that's actually NOT a basic concept. I actually experienced something of a mental epiphany when I read that tonight.  Helped me better understand the rules.  Damn, I still don't know them all yet.

 

As far as teaching and reaching misguided rookies (or those who have been misguided for years), everyone learns differently.  If it were me, I'd probably look at you with a blank stare for a bit, and then say to myself, "Holy Crap!!  He's right.  I was wrong--again!!  God damn'it!!"  All of the suggested means of reaching the guy listed above sound great to me.  I know I'd respond to each of them.  And if he doesn't.  Well, then you know what he's really all about.

[WIUMP]

That is a great post.

[Majordave]

Well said RecontraBacan.  You are a good writer.  

[Sayhey]

That's the best post I have ever read on U.E.! Nice job. With an excellent attitude like you have and the money you are spending on training you will move up fast and should definitely work college ball. Any umpire would be proud and honored to work a game with you. Hope you have a great season. I enjoyed the Holiday Inn in Tuscon. It's a good time watching the World Series with other umpires.