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OK. I'll bite. The correct mechanic would be to make the call? 3-1 pitch, runner goes, check swing, R1 out stealing, pitch called ball 4. R1 walks off base after being called out. 

Ruling?

All codes agree?

Somewhere, I think, "make no call" is the first thing to do.

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Why on earth would you not make a call? Either everyone will realize it and it will be obvious to all, or everyone plays it out, you make the call, and at worst it's a micro-second of "oh, it was ball 4" and we move on. Asking just makes you look unsure and unaware, far in excess of understandably not realizing it's ball 4. I mean, if the runner, fielders, and everyone else didn't realize it, you're not alone in playing it out. But then asking for all to see? No thanks.

 

If the catcher throws it, I'm making a call till someone tells me otherwise.

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About moving up a level - regardless of age - Work as many games as you can, especially in 2 or 3 seasons in a row. Your mechanics will improve, your pregame meeting will be focused, you'll know when to "not see" a balk when the defensive team is down 20 runs in the (hopefully) last inning, your communication skills with other umps will be praised, AND YOU WILL GET SEEN. One other thing - get an economy car! You'll be putting miles on it.

The other umps suggesting clinics are right - that's where we get to work on mechanics the most. You're not likely to learn advanced stuff on your own - take the following situation:

BU at B, Runner on first, ball three to batter. Runner steals, pitch is caught, catcher throws down to 2B, who applies a tag. BU's eyes saw out, BUT HE DOES NOT CALL AN OUT YET.

BU says "Hold on, gentlemen!", turns to PU, asks, "Hey Joe - was that pitch a ball or a strike?"

If PU answers "That was strike 1", BU calls R1 out on the tag.

If PU answers, "That was ball four", BU says, "Lucky dude, you're on second base." Bu moves to C, as Batter-runner walks to first.

I overheard this at a clinic. I learned the mechanic for a double-play at a clinic, and used it the nest game, with an adjustment to call my first triple play. Could not have done it, nor have looked as good as I did doing it without that clinic the day before.

The other big move up is going to pro school. It's competetive, guys want to go to the major leagues. Everything and anything counts, even the clothes you wear "Off duty" in the lounge. You're all business at pro school. Attending pro school more than once is not looked down upon.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE DO NOT EVER DO THIS IN A GAME... EVER... NOT NEXT WEEK NOT NEXT YEAR. Who ever told you this needs to attend the Midamerican umpire clinic to be taught the right way.

Om my gosh, my blood pressure is going through the roof.

I agree! no way!!! Yikes

Just make the call!

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OK. I'll bite. The correct mechanic would be to make the call? 3-1 pitch, runner goes, check swing, R1 out stealing, pitch called ball 4. R1 walks off base after being called out. 

Ruling?

All codes agree? 

The ruling is to put R1 back on second, and all codes agree (well, I don't know about all the youth league variations)

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Why on earth would you not make a call? Either everyone will realize it and it will be obvious to all, or everyone plays it out, you make the call, and at worst it's a micro-second of "oh, it was ball 4" and we move on. Asking just makes you look unsure and unaware, far in excess of understandably not realizing it's ball 4. I mean, if the runner, fielders, and everyone else didn't realize it, you're not alone in playing it out. But then asking for all to see? No thanks.

If the catcher throws it, I'm making a call till someone tells me otherwise.

Would PBUC play #1 in 9.7 convince you not to make a call:

"The base umpire should watch the play closely but make no call on the play....."

Edited to add: I see your point. You are responding to the OP but I quoted and responded to Rich's play which was a check swing possibility.

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#1- Stay with the pitch as long as you can. Keeping your eye on the ball and not turning towards 2nd until the ball turns you. Side note: As the plate umpire in these situations I try to make a quicker call. Especially on a ball so the catcher doesn't have to throw. ***A lot of catchers will ask you to make a call quickly so they don't have to make an unnecessary throw.***

#2- Use your ears as much as your eyes. Listen to the plate umpire. Side note: As the plate umpire in these situations I'll say "Ball 4" pretty loud.

#3- Use your instincts. Did you think the pitch was a ball or strike?

#4- If you really don't know, make a call. If you call him out and it was ball 4, correct it and put him back on 2nd.

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OK. I'll bite. The correct mechanic would be to make the call? 3-1 pitch, runner goes, check swing, R1 out stealing, pitch called ball 4. R1 walks off base after being called out. 

Ruling?

All codes agree? 

If you as the BU are watching the ball ( correct mechanic) you should be able to see if your partner called a ball or strike... then there is no need to call this.. But it happens..

 

So if you call the runner out and it was a ball, to which makes it ball 4.. call time and put the runner back on 2nd... easy fix.

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Correct mechanic would be for HPU to call the pitch prior to throw getting to 2b?

this is why the PU should always say/yell Ball 4.. so his partner/s can hear and not call any runners out.

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OK. I'll bite. The correct mechanic would be to make the call? 3-1 pitch, runner goes, check swing, R1 out stealing, pitch called ball 4. R1 walks off base after being called out.

Ruling?

All codes agree?

If you as the BU are watching the ball ( correct mechanic) you should be able to see if your partner called a ball or strike... then there is no need to call this.. But it happens..

So if you call the runner out and it was a ball, to which makes it ball 4.. call time and put the runner back on 2nd... easy fix. This is a check swing situation and PBUC says to make no call as it is ball four until the swing is appealed and ruled a strike. Although, if if the voluntary strike mechanic is used the appeal outcome might already be known. Edited to add: disregard, voluntary strike would not apply in this sit.

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I agree, most always we should know if it was a ball 4 or strike 2 before we turn with the ball to make the call on R1. My question was the rare times we either miss PU's call, (or PU just isn't quick or loud) or, as @Jimurray points out, a check swing that's called ball 4 by PU, but an appeal is possible. 

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I agree, most always we should know if it was a ball 4 or strike 2 before we turn with the ball to make the call on R1. My question was the rare times we either miss PU's call, (or PU just isn't quick or loud) or, as @Jimurray points out, a check swing that's called ball 4 by PU, but an appeal is possible. 

 

 

Just let it play out, make your call and correct it if necessary.

 

I mean, if it's a check swing and you don't make a call expecting your partner to ask for help and he doesn't, what are you going to do then besides stand there and look really bad?

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You guys want to throw out these PBUC scenarios and that's great, but you need to remember, too, that the PBUC manual is written for professional umpires who have been professionally trained for 4-5 weeks, been through an evaluation course and work together for 100+ games a year. When you're working with Bobby Dwayne who showed up 15 minutes before the game and jumped out of his car dressed to work the plate, sometimes you just gotta umpire and correct a situation after the fact.

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I agree, most always we should know if it was a ball 4 or strike 2 before we turn with the ball to make the call on R1. My question was the rare times we either miss PU's call, (or PU just isn't quick or loud) or, as @Jimurray points out, a check swing that's called ball 4 by PU, but an appeal is possible.

 

 

Just let it play out, make your call and correct it if necessary.

 

I mean, if it's a check swing and you don't make a call expecting your partner to ask for help and he doesn't, what are you going to do then besides stand there and look really bad?

For the check swing sit only:

In 2 man, you control the appeal and you know if the code requires the PU to go to you. So, knowing its ball four and knowing that you don't have a swing, a tagged out runner should hear "that's ball four". Knowing you would have a swing what should the call be if any? Obviously, a safe runner can be called safe even if a call is not needed.

In more than 2 man where the appeal does not belong to you, a tagged out runner should hear nothing until the appeal is judged. I don't think you would safe the tagged runner on ball four knowing an appeal might be coming. If the runner was safe a safe signal wouldn't hurt even if was not needed on a no swing judgement from the other BU.

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I agree, most always we should know if it was a ball 4 or strike 2 before we turn with the ball to make the call on R1. My question was the rare times we either miss PU's call, (or PU just isn't quick or loud) or, as @Jimurray points out, a check swing that's called ball 4 by PU, but an appeal is possible.

 

 

Just let it play out, make your call and correct it if necessary.

 

I mean, if it's a check swing and you don't make a call expecting your partner to ask for help and he doesn't, what are you going to do then besides stand there and look really bad?

For the check swing sit only:

In 2 man, you control the appeal and you know if the code requires the PU to go to you. So, knowing its ball four and knowing that you don't have a swing, a tagged out runner should hear "that's ball four". Knowing you would have a swing what should the call be if any? Obviously, a safe runner can be called safe even if a call is not needed.

In more than 2 man where the appeal does not belong to you, a tagged out runner should hear nothing until the appeal is judged. I don't think you would safe the tagged runner on ball four knowing an appeal might be coming. If the runner was safe a safe signal wouldn't hurt even if was not needed on a no swing judgement from the other BU.

 

I'm not sure I understand what you wrote. Are you advocating for the base umpire calling the check swing on his own without being asked?

 

If you know the pitch is ball 4 and the runner would have been out, just tell everyone it's ball 4 and move to your next spot.

If you think the batter swung but the plate umpire doesn't call it, make your safe/out call at 2nd and wait for the PU to appeal. If he doesn't appeal, play on.

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@MidAmUmp your post are more then worth the price of admisson to this site. Thank you for the complete and authoritative assistance. Lots of other good post on this situation as well. Feeling confident in what I'm supposed to do allows me to develop and practice proper habits.

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I agree, most always we should know if it was a ball 4 or strike 2 before we turn with the ball to make the call on R1. My question was the rare times we either miss PU's call, (or PU just isn't quick or loud) or, as @Jimurray points out, a check swing that's called ball 4 by PU, but an appeal is possible.

 

 

Just let it play out, make your call and correct it if necessary.

 

I mean, if it's a check swing and you don't make a call expecting your partner to ask for help and he doesn't, what are you going to do then besides stand there and look really bad?

For the check swing sit only:

In 2 man, you control the appeal and you know if the code requires the PU to go to you. So, knowing its ball four and knowing that you don't have a swing, a tagged out runner should hear "that's ball four". Knowing you would have a swing what should the call be if any? Obviously, a safe runner can be called safe even if a call is not needed.

In more than 2 man where the appeal does not belong to you, a tagged out runner should hear nothing until the appeal is judged. I don't think you would safe the tagged runner on ball four knowing an appeal might be coming. If the runner was safe a safe signal wouldn't hurt even if was not needed on a no swing judgement from the other BU.

 

I'm not sure I understand what you wrote. Are you advocating for the base umpire calling the check swing on his own without being asked?

 

If you know the pitch is ball 4 and the runner would have been out, just tell everyone it's ball 4 and move to your next spot.

If you think the batter swung but the plate umpire doesn't call it, make your safe/out call at 2nd and wait for the PU to appeal. If he doesn't appeal, play on.

 

No, the BU should wait to be asked unless you are using the very advanced "voluntary strike" mechanic in the appropriate sit.

If you have a swing, are you going to "safe" an obviously tagged out runner when it's ball four until/if appealed. Then when you or your partner rules a swing you reverse safe to out? A no call is better in that sit. If there is no appeal a no call on a tagged out runner on ball four is appropriate.

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I agree, most always we should know if it was a ball 4 or strike 2 before we turn with the ball to make the call on R1. My question was the rare times we either miss PU's call, (or PU just isn't quick or loud) or, as @Jimurray points out, a check swing that's called ball 4 by PU, but an appeal is possible.

 

 

Just let it play out, make your call and correct it if necessary.

 

I mean, if it's a check swing and you don't make a call expecting your partner to ask for help and he doesn't, what are you going to do then besides stand there and look really bad?

For the check swing sit only:

In 2 man, you control the appeal and you know if the code requires the PU to go to you. So, knowing its ball four and knowing that you don't have a swing, a tagged out runner should hear "that's ball four". Knowing you would have a swing what should the call be if any? Obviously, a safe runner can be called safe even if a call is not needed.

In more than 2 man where the appeal does not belong to you, a tagged out runner should hear nothing until the appeal is judged. I don't think you would safe the tagged runner on ball four knowing an appeal might be coming. If the runner was safe a safe signal wouldn't hurt even if was not needed on a no swing judgement from the other BU.

 

I'm not sure I understand what you wrote. Are you advocating for the base umpire calling the check swing on his own without being asked?

 

If you know the pitch is ball 4 and the runner would have been out, just tell everyone it's ball 4 and move to your next spot.

If you think the batter swung but the plate umpire doesn't call it, make your safe/out call at 2nd and wait for the PU to appeal. If he doesn't appeal, play on.

 

No, the BU should wait to be asked unless you are using the very advanced "voluntary strike" mechanic in the appropriate sit.

If you have a swing, are you going to "safe" an obviously tagged out runner when it's ball four until/if appealed. Then when you or your partner rules a swing you reverse safe to out? A no call is better in that sit. If there is no appeal a no call on a tagged out runner on ball four is appropriate.

 

 

This is a HTBT situation and I would probably treat all of them differently, but if I was 100% for sure the batter swung, I'd probably call the runner out, then tell him to stay at 2nd once I realized the PU didn't get it on his own, then let them appeal, call the strike on the swing, then call R1 out, and then eject 2-3 people.

 

This is really a 3rd world situation. The chances of you staying with a check swing long enough to see it, and also be in position to see the play at 2nd is not very likely. How often do you see a batter's interference? I see the obvious ones, but once I read true throw I've give up on the batter and am tracking the ball to 2nd base.

 

So taking that into consideration, in all likelihood I'd choose to pick up the clean end of the stick and say the batter didn't swing.

 

I would never use a "voluntary strike" mechanic.

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"This is a real third world situation......"

Quote of the day right there.

"Sometines you just gotta umpire...."

Second best quote.

Both from your favorite member and mine.....

&MidAmUmp.

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I agree, most always we should know if it was a ball 4 or strike 2 before we turn with the ball to make the call on R1. My question was the rare times we either miss PU's call, (or PU just isn't quick or loud) or, as @Jimurray points out, a check swing that's called ball 4 by PU, but an appeal is possible.

 

 

Just let it play out, make your call and correct it if necessary.

 

I mean, if it's a check swing and you don't make a call expecting your partner to ask for help and he doesn't, what are you going to do then besides stand there and look really bad?

For the check swing sit only:

In 2 man, you control the appeal and you know if the code requires the PU to go to you. So, knowing its ball four and knowing that you don't have a swing, a tagged out runner should hear "that's ball four". Knowing you would have a swing what should the call be if any? Obviously, a safe runner can be called safe even if a call is not needed.

In more than 2 man where the appeal does not belong to you, a tagged out runner should hear nothing until the appeal is judged. I don't think you would safe the tagged runner on ball four knowing an appeal might be coming. If the runner was safe a safe signal wouldn't hurt even if was not needed on a no swing judgement from the other BU.

 

I'm not sure I understand what you wrote. Are you advocating for the base umpire calling the check swing on his own without being asked?

 

If you know the pitch is ball 4 and the runner would have been out, just tell everyone it's ball 4 and move to your next spot.

If you think the batter swung but the plate umpire doesn't call it, make your safe/out call at 2nd and wait for the PU to appeal. If he doesn't appeal, play on.

 

No, the BU should wait to be asked unless you are using the very advanced "voluntary strike" mechanic in the appropriate sit.

If you have a swing, are you going to "safe" an obviously tagged out runner when it's ball four until/if appealed. Then when you or your partner rules a swing you reverse safe to out? A no call is better in that sit. If there is no appeal a no call on a tagged out runner on ball four is appropriate.

 

 

This is a HTBT situation and I would probably treat all of them differently, but if I was 100% for sure the batter swung, I'd probably call the runner out, then tell him to stay at 2nd once I realized the PU didn't get it on his own, then let them appeal, call the strike on the swing, then call R1 out, and then eject 2-3 people.

 

This is really a 3rd world situation. The chances of you staying with a check swing long enough to see it, and also be in position to see the play at 2nd is not very likely. How often do you see a batter's interference? I see the obvious ones, but once I read true throw I've give up on the batter and am tracking the ball to 2nd base.

 

So taking that into consideration, in all likelihood I'd choose to pick up the clean end of the stick and say the batter didn't swing.

 

I would never use a "voluntary strike" mechanic.

 

In 2 man I would agree with picking up the clean end of the stick and a "that's ball four" on a tagged out runner would be appropriate.

In more than 2 man, a no call on a tagged out runner might be better.

 

There are 2 parts to the voluntary strike and I only mentioned it as a caveat to the BU being asked on appeal. It is not related to what we were discussing so there might be some confusion. Do you not agree that on a DTK checked swing sit that the PU should ask immediately and if not asked immediately the BU should voluntarily give his signal if he has a swing?

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"This is a real third world situation......"

Quote of the day right there.

"Sometines you just gotta umpire...."

Second best quote.

Both from your favorite member and mine.....

&MidAmUmp.

Checked swings and runners stealing on ball four only happen in the third world?

 

This wasn't a checked swing. More like the OP. But as said previously you can fix it:

http://m.mlb.com/video/v30332653/seakc-ackley-confused-by-umpires-call-after-walk

 

m.mlb.com/video/v30332653/?query=stealing%2Bon%2Bball%2Bfour

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There are 2 parts to the voluntary strike and I only mentioned it as a caveat to the BU being asked on appeal. It is not related to what we were discussing so there might be some confusion. Do you not agree that on a DTK checked swing sit that the PU should ask immediately and if not asked immediately the BU should voluntarily give his signal if he has a swing?

 

In a perfect world, yes, I would agree. But again, when you're working with different partners every night...some good...some JaxRolo...I would say no. There are too many variables to do this at the amateur level.

 

As I said in an earlier post - professional umpires work 100+ games together, they can do these things and players at that level know what to do (for the most part). However, at our levels (maybe with the exception of D1) I think you are creating a huge SH*#house mess by doing this. Runners should know to run when in doubt. Catchers should know to immediately request help as they are chasing after the ball. Plate umpires should know to immediately ask for help if there is any doubt in their mind. But there's no guarantee any or all of those 3 people are going to do that.

 

So in the large picture of who reads this board - 1st year youth umpires all the way up to D-1 (and maybe beyond) - I would not advocate (as a whole) for a base umpire to call a check swing on his own.

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PU: "Ball"

F2 forgets the sitch and starts to throw to 2B.

PU: "BALL 4 !!!" loud, before he releases the throw. Scare F2 out of throwing the ball (so I'm helping the guy who keeps pitches off of me, sue me). If F2 still releases the throw, BU should have heard your loud BALL 4 (if you really said it loud enough, it'll scare BU out of calling R1/R2 out. ;).

 

As the MLB video shows, this is not a TWP.

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PU: "Ball"

F2 forgets the sitch and starts to throw to 2B.

PU: "BALL 4 !!!" loud, before he releases the throw. Scare F2 out of throwing the ball (so I'm helping the guy who keeps pitches off of me, sue me). If F2 still releases the throw, BU should have heard your loud BALL 4 (if you really said it loud enough, it'll scare BU out of calling R1/R2 out. ;).

 

As the MLB video shows, this is not a TWP.

 

Why not just say "Ball 4" to begin with?  :shrug:

 

And the 3rd world play I was talking about is a ball 4 or check swing strike situation, not your average run of the mill ball 4 situation.

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PU: "Ball"

F2 forgets the sitch and starts to throw to 2B.

PU: "BALL 4 !!!" loud, before he releases the throw. Scare F2 out of throwing the ball (so I'm helping the guy who keeps pitches off of me, sue me). If F2 still releases the throw, BU should have heard your loud BALL 4 (if you really said it loud enough, it'll scare BU out of calling R1/R2 out. ;).

 

As the MLB video shows, this is not a TWP.

 

Why not just say "Ball 4" to begin with?  :shrug:

 

And the 3rd world play I was talking about is a ball 4 or check swing strike situation, not your average run of the mill ball 4 situation.

 

No reason, why not...I've never counted balls/strikes out loud (but I would like to save F2 a throw if I could).

 

Heck, I have trouble getting new umpires to verbalize the ball call at all.

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