How would you handle?

[Umpire in Chief]

A guy I work with asked me this question and I happen to have a copy of their local rules which do not address the issue. The best they explain is that if a player can not continue to play he is skipped in the batting order and no out shall be recorded when his spot comes to bat. But a team must always be able to field 8 players.

 

Continuous batting order 

 

Batter fouls one off his knee and goes down in a crying heap and cant return and now has a 1-2 count. 

 

The question is with CBO does the next batter come up and assume the count or not? 

 

The offense wanted next batter new count, the defense was saying the next batter assumes the count.

 

I said my ruling would be new batter with no count. This is what the umpire did too. This in my mind would be the equivalent to being skipped and since it is not a substitution I couldn't see "punishing" the next batter by inheriting the count.

 

Apparently there was quite a discussion between the umpire and the two coaches. I did remind my friend that this was a kids game and the amount of time they wasted only ate into their time limit. 

 

What would you do? (besides not call youth ball )

[FleasOf1000Camels]

While I understand your NOT wanting to "punish the next batter", I'd be inclined to (in the absence of any clear protocol in the local rules" have the following batter inherit the count...otherwise you "punish" the defense instead.  Just my $.02 worth.

[grayhawk]

Put the last batter not on base in to complete the injured players at-bat, assuming the existing count.  IMO, there is no way the count should just be thrown out.  The pitcher earned that 1-2 count (or a batter earned a 3-0 count, if that were to be the case).

[Jocko]

I'd bring up the next batter in the order. Assume the count. Same as if he'd subbed in a batter by choice. New F1s assume counts. I believe batters should too, in weird scenarios. Would this be a legit 9.01 © ?

[elares]

With CBO there is no one 'out of the game' that can be subbed in for the injured player.  Next batter comes up and assumes the count.

[TStokes97]

I played in a CBO league, if we had to replace on offence due to injury the person who made the most recent out would sub in at bat or on base

[DVA7130]

Nope. In these rule sets By Rule:

If there are no legal subs (as is always the case in continuous) this is an OUT.

Same with injury on bases.

Then they are skipped.

[SoCal Lurker]

Nope. In these rule sets By Rule:

If there are no legal subs (as is always the case in continuous) this is an OUT.

Same with injury on bases.

Then they are skipped.

 

Except that the OP said that the applicable ruels said there is no out . . . once one makes up rules, they can make up any rule they like . . .

[DVA7130]

Nope. In these rule sets By Rule:

If there are no legal subs (as is always the case in continuous) this is an OUT.

Same with injury on bases.

Then they are skipped.

 

Except that the OP said that the applicable ruels said there is no out . . . once one makes up rules, they can make up any rule they like . . .

No, the loco[al] rule said that an injury is skipped in the batting order without penalty.

This is a substitution situation.

Unless the local rule specifically covers it, which is not the case here, I will revert to what I know from the superseding rule set.

[umpcoachfather]

I'm assuming their is a pitch count in this league also, I'm also betting those pitches dont get wiped away when junior gets HBP.  Count stays, new batter. 

[cyclonehokiece]

I think the local league has to update their rules and/or issue an official interpretation. This should be a case that should be spelled out if you want the teams to use CBO.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ALStripes17]

Nope. In these rule sets By Rule:

If there are no legal subs (as is always the case in continuous) this is an OUT.

Same with injury on bases.

Then they are skipped.

Could you provide a cite from one or a few of the rulesets with CBO that get an out in this scenario and for an injury on bases?

[umpcoachfather]

Also, I'm pretty sure you can't make up rules that go against the League Rules, as Im not sure what rules he is playing under. And although I dont call LL games, I'm pretty sure they record an out if your down to 8 and that position comes to bat.  You cannot change that rule.  Just like you cant change a 2 base award if the 1st throw from a certain section/player of the outfield occurs cause of some stupid field thing or what ever.  So I would need to know what ruleset they are playing under before any decisin/determiniation is made.  Unless its their own league and they make the rules, then there is no use having this discussion.

[noumpere]

Nope. In these rule sets By Rule:

If there are no legal subs (as is always the case in continuous) this is an OUT.

Same with injury on bases.

Then they are skipped.

A runner on base may be replaced in FED with no penalty, even if there is no legal sub.

 

And, I agree that you can do "whatever you want" (9.01c) until the league clarifies.

[SoCal Lurker]

Also, I'm pretty sure you can't make up rules that go against the League Rules, as Im not sure what rules he is playing under. And although I dont call LL games, I'm pretty sure they record an out if your down to 8 and that position comes to bat.  You cannot change that rule.  Just like you cant change a 2 base award if the 1st throw from a certain section/player of the outfield occurs cause of some stupid field thing or what ever.  So I would need to know what ruleset they are playing under before any decisin/determiniation is made.  Unless its their own league and they make the rules, then there is no use having this discussion.

 

I don't believe LL has a modifcation that permits playing with fewer than 9.

[Larry in TN]

I dont call LL games, I'm pretty sure they record an out if your down to 8 and that position comes to bat.  You cannot change that rule.

 

They can't implement that (non-existent) rule without getting it approved through Willisamsport.     

 

LL doesn't have any provision for playing with less than 9 players [4.16/4.17 p.74 2014 LL Rule Book].  Any such rule would be a "local" rule which, I bet, has not been approved by the Charter Committee as is required by the "CHARTER COMMITTEE/WAIVERS OF RULES AND REGULATIONS" paragraph (p.12 2014 LL Rule Book).

 

 

4.16 - [...]

NOTE: A game may not be started with less than nine (9) players on each team, nor without at least one adult manager or substitute manager.

 

4.17 - [...]

NOTE: A game may not be continued with less than nine (9) players on each team.

 

 

CHARTER COMMITTEE/WAIVERS OF RULES AND REGULATIONS

The Charter Committee is a group of personnel at Little League International in Williamsport, Pennsylvania, in whom is placed (by the Little League International Board of Directors) the responsibility of reviewing, granting, suspending or revoking the privileges and conditions of the local league's charter.  When a local league wishes to request a waiver of a specific rule or regulation, it must submit the request in writing to the District Administrator, who will forward it with his/her recommendation to the Regional Director.  The Regional Director will present the request to the Charter Committee for a decision.  No other person or group has the authority to approve waivers or ANY rules or regulations.

[grayhawk]

Yep, can't play with less than 9 players in LL.  Also, with CBO in LL, if a player is injured or has to leave the game for any reason, you just skip over his spot in the order.  There is no out recorded.

[Sayhey]

In Triple Crown play, if you choose to bat your whole lineup/subs included, and there is a hole in your lineup due to injury or ejection, when that spot in the line up comes due to bat, it is an out

The coach is responsible to know that fact.

I would never bat my entire line up in a championship game. Too risky.

With the hybrid rules mentioned I would try to keep the 1-2 count in order because the pitcher worked that count and deserves the count to be the same.

[DVA7130]

Nope. In these rule sets By Rule:

If there are no legal subs (as is always the case in continuous) this is an OUT.

Same with injury on bases.

Then they are skipped.

Could you provide a cite from one or a few of the rulesets with CBO that get an out in this scenario and for an injury on bases?

Under USSSA (modified OBR, a baseline and where I am certain in these rulings)

7.03.G Teams may play an official game with an eight (8) player line-up. If a team plays with an eight (8) player line-up, an out shall be declared for the ninth (9th) position in the batting line-up each turn at bat.

Rule 7.03.G Approved Ruling: A ninth (9th) player and all subsequent players may be added to the bottom of the batting line-up as soon as they become available.

7.03.H A team may continue a game with a minimum of eight (8) eligible players. A player who has left a game for any reason cannot return to the game.

7.03.H.1 If the player leaving the game is a runner and no legal substitutes are available, the runner is declared out.

Rule 7.03.H.1 Exception: If the player is leaving the game for Communicable Disease Procedure (blood) reasons, the player whom recorded the previous out assumes the runners position on base.

7.02.H.2 When a player who has left the game is scheduled to bat and no legal substitutes are available, an out shall be declared for each turn at bat.

Rule 7.03.H.2 Exception: If the player left the game for Communicable Disease Procedure (blood) reasons, the players turn in the batting order shall be omitted for the remainder of the game without penalty.