Uncaught Third Strike

[Mike Prince]

There was a thread quite a while back debating the merits of PU verbalizing an uncaught third strike.  I am not trying to rekindle that debate, just using this as reference because I do verbalize 'no catch'.

 

I had the plate yesterday for a 12U game and BR swings at strike three in the dirt with less than 2 outs and 1B not occupied.  I verbalize "strike three, no catch" and hold out clenched fists at my side parallel to the ground like I have done for years.  BR makes it half way up the line then stops, turns around and looks at me, and starts walking back towards the plate.  As he gets back within the dirt circle I call him out for abandonment.

 

An interesting conversation ensues as the HC calls time.

 

HC:  Why did you call him out?

Me:  Coach he abandoned his attempt for 1B

HC:  What do you mean?

Me:  He went halfway to the bag, turned around and came back to pick up his bat.  If that's not giving up his opportunity for the base I'm not sure what is.

HC:  But you called it foul.

Me:  I did nothing of the sort, I said the ball wasn't caught.

HC:  I am confused.

Me:  Coach, I don't think there's anything else left to discuss.  Two outs.

HC:  OK

 

My partner (also my UIC) said post game that he never verbalizes or signals to avoid this situation.  But I still think verbalizing and signaling is good because the other 99% of the time it actually does clarify what actually happened and no one gets confused.  Guess i just got bitten by the other 1%.

[ricka56]

I think that situation occurs because most umpires don't verbalize the U3K. I've had this convo with lower level teams. Nothing you can do but keep on educating the uneducated coaches/players.  

 

But I don't think calling him out for abandonment was right. A BR can retreat towards HP. I wouldn't have banged him out until he has tagged, which was "surely" about to happen, right. Why pick up a second dirty-ended stick (I know the other stick looked clean).

[JaxRolo]

I don't think it's necessary to verbalize it.

 

Runners will always start running to 1st anyway and the coaches will start yelling "run run run"

 

Never been a problem not verbalizing it.

[Scratch Franzeo]

I don't verbalize U3K, I simply signal safe.

[ricka56]

I verbalize U3K when its one of those shorthop stabs into F2's glove or not and I have to make the call. Neither F2, nor B/BR can see my non-verbal safe signal unless they turn-around and I want to make that info available ASAP. If its obviously an U3K, I don't verbalize (non-verbal safe only).

[MidAmUmp]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is what I was going to write.

[maven]

I verbalize more often than not. Only 2 people in the ball park cannot see me signal, and they're the ones most affected by the call. Can't hurt, and often helps.

[noumpere]

5+6+7 = +1

[ricka56]

This w/e I had F2 come up ready to throw, but (as in the OP) the wheels spin when the "NO catch" registered in his head and he paused to think (maybe I shouldn't have done that to him). I repeated, "NO catch" and he recocked and threw to 1B and got the out.

 

I try to remember to emphasize the NO part of the verbal, but sometimes I think "catch" is the only part that F2 "wants" to hear. If you want to minimize confusion and  "NO catch, tag him or throw to 1B, dummy" is not the proper verbal, what is ?

[grayhawk]

Had a situation last weekend where on a swinging strike 3, the catcher caught the short hop clean in his glove.  I didn't see it, I heard it.  I signaled with my "safe" mechanic and I heard F2 say, "I caught it."  I verbal to him, "No, you didn't." and he threw to first for the out.  Perhaps a "no catch" would have been wise in this situation, but I don't typically verbal on U3K's and it just wasn't "muscle memory" for me to do so.

 

The interesting part is that after the play, F2 again reiterated that he caught it clean.  I told him that I clearly heard it hit the ground first, and he agreed that it did.  He then asked if he still needed to tag the runner when that happens - this was a varsity F2!

 

Perhaps "ball hit the ground" is a better verbal than "no catch" so they don't get confused when they hear the word "catch"?

[Magic]

I have never verbalized it. Not that I agree or disagree with it. But for me I just signal and usually on my signal the coach starts yelling for the BR to run. When I have a catch on a swinging strike that is close to the ground, and the BR starts running to 1st I yell pretty loud "Batter is Out!"

[Specks]

I do not verbalize. In the OP situation I would have pointed the strike then given the safe sign for no catch. When he got back and touched the plate I would have called him out also. The only time I had an issue was on smaller kids, I called the strike gave the safe mechanic and stood there with my arms out and the BR and F2 staring at me for what seemed like forever but likely 5 seconds. Then the both dugouts started yelling instructions. That made me think how long would I have stood there before I decided the BR abandoned his efforts to advance.

[noumpere]

I don't think you can call abandonment until after the BR reaches first.

 

You can get an out once he reaches the plate, but not when he just returns to the dirt circle.

[kanedog]

Check your appropriate rule set. NFHS It is not abandonment until he enters the dugout or dead ball area. In NCAA it is not abandonment until he reaches a base and then leaves the baseline. Also, if the b/r retreats past home plate he is out just as noumpere referenced.

[Haid D' Salaami]

you should not be saying " strike 3, no catch'... we know its a strike he swung...

 

this is what you should say....

 

play.... swing and miss....PU " no catch, while holding out your right hand like your pointing for a 1st down"...then if there is a tag attempt by F2, you can say, out or safe no tag.. it's pretty simple.

[Haid D' Salaami]

you guys need to verbalize... you need to to give the batter a chance to advance., what whould you like him do do, stop and look around for the ball, or just run once he hear " NO CATCH"...? think about..

[MidAmUmp]

you should not be saying " strike 3, no catch'... we know its a strike he swung...

 

this is what you should say....

 

play.... swing and miss....PU " no catch, while holding out your right hand like your pointing for a 1st down"...then if there is a tag attempt by F2, you can say, out or safe no tag.. it's pretty simple.

The grammar police say you put your closing quotation mark in the wrong spot.

 

Yes, you need to be verbalizing a no catch.  Unless it is obvious to everyone (ball to the backstop) in which case a simple safe mechanic is fine.

[JaxRolo]

you should not be saying " strike 3, no catch'... we know its a strike he swung... this is what you should say.... play.... swing and miss....PU " no catch, while holding out your right hand like your pointing for a 1st down"...then if there is a tag attempt by F2, you can say, out or safe no tag.. it's pretty simple.

I like that!

[ricka56]

Also verbalizing "that's a catch" when it is not a U3K but near the ground, gives F2/B the info needed, instead of them wondering if you had the out or are giving a non-verbal safe mechanic behind their backs. Why would we want F2 to take time to look around to find this info when there are possible outs to be gotten at other bases.

[grayhawk]

Also verbalizing "that's a catch" when it is not a U3K but near the ground, gives F2/B the info needed, instead of them wondering if you had the out or are giving a non-verbal safe mechanic behind their backs. Why would we want F2 to take time to look around to find this info when there are possible outs to be gotten at other bases.

 

I do this, and it seems to work well.

[Texas Manny]

From the Wendelstedt Umpire School Two-Man Umpire System Manual, Index of Signals and Mechanics, Uncaught Third Strike, pg XXI:

 

Uncaught Third Strike

 

With two outs, or with fine base unoccupied, the batter becomes a runner and may advance to first base if his third strike is uncaught. If he is not allowed to advance, the normal third strike mechanic is all that is necessary. However, if one of the conditions occurs that allow him to advance on the uncaught third strike, the umpire should indicate the third strike by pointing with his right hand and arm out to the side using no voice. This signal prevents confusion that a standard strike mechanic may cause if players believe you are instead calling the batter out.

 

Then, depending on what occurs next, the following shall apply:

• If the pitch gets away from the catcher a considerable distance where it is obvious to everyone that the ball was not caught, there is no need for any further mechanic or voice.
• If the pitch is short-hopped by the catcher, use the voice and signal for your no catch mechanic.
• If the batter begins to advance and a tag attempt is missed, use the voice and signal for your no tag mechanic.
• If the batter is immediately tagged, use the voice and signal for your out mechanic.

 

Using good timing is essential when utilizing these mechanics in order to avoid confusion. Do not signal "No catch!" or "No tag!" immediately; just to have the catcher apply a tag successfully. Instead of three or four rushed mechanics, allow the play to develop and only make the mechanics necessary.

 

(End of Wendelstedt)

 

 

 

From the Jim Evans Maximizing the Two-Umpire System, Communication and Signaling, Uncaught Third Strike, Section 12.26, pg 270:

 

Uncaught Third Strike

 

When a called or swinging third strike is not legally caught by the catcher and the batter is legally entitled to advance, the umpire shall signal the strike and then indicate that the ball was not legally secured before touching the ground.

 

(Visual "Hammer" strike 3!)

(Visual "Safe" mechanic, saying "No catch! No catch")

(Visual right hand pointing to ground in front of you, saying "Ball hit the ground")

 

Two Considerations When the Plate Umpire Does Not Make an Immediate Call:

 

1. The plate umpire may take a quick glance at his base umpire. The base umpire shall discreetly display a closed fist indicating that the catcher legally secured the ball and the batter is out; or, he may discreetly point to the ground indicating that the ball was not legally caught before touching the ground. In either case, the base umpire uses no verbal communication.

 

2. If the plate umpire does not take the quick glance but decides subsequently that he needs help, he shall step out directly toward his partner and ask loudly, "Did he catch it?" The base umpire should respond with an emphatic "Yes, he caught it!" while displaying  a closed fist chest high, or "No, he didn't!" Ball hit the ground!" while aggressively pointing to the ground with the index finger of his right hand.

 

Note: It is important that this exchange take place as quickly as possible so that the batter-runner is not deprived of any opportunity to advance if the ball was not legally secured.

 

(End of Jim Evans)

 

 

(Note the differences between Wendelstedt and Jim Evans)

 

 

Just passing along what the manuals say. No offense meant to those whose signals/mechanics may be a hair different, but offered as a basis for fundamental training.

 

[ricka56]

If F2 chases and maybe/maybe not gets the tag on BR, I'll let it play out. If F2 sells me a tag, I'm probably buying it. If F2 is still working on getting an out and BR is running, I don't see a need to verbalize "no tag" and possibly mucking-up the play when someone incorrectly reacts to hearing the word "TAG'. I just let it play out. But if I've got a tag, I'll verbalize that.  

[Platejob29]

I've always been on the fence for this subject. On one hand if you don't verbalize it the two players that need to know more than anyone else on the field can't see a physical mechanic. But on the other hand verbalizing it can often lead to controversy and in a situation like that not everyone is going to hear what you say clearly and they will end up hearing what they want to hear. I don't ever verbalize it because of that situation and generally at the higher levels F2 will always throw out a quick tag on the BR and the BR will always at least make an advance towards first until he hears he is out.

[Haid D' Salaami]

I've always been on the fence for this subject. On one hand if you don't verbalize it the two players that need to know more than anyone else on the field can't see a physical mechanic. But on the other hand verbalizing it can often lead to controversy and in a situation like that not everyone is going to hear what you say clearly and they will end up hearing what they want to hear. I don't ever verbalize it because of that situation and generally at the higher levels F2 will always throw out a quick tag on the BR and the BR will always at least make an advance towards first until he hears he is out.

The only 2 people who need to hear are the batter and F2....you need to let everyone know... if an outfielder or infielder traps a ball do you verbalize it or just give a signal?

[ricka56]

 

  and generally at the higher levels F2 will always throw out a quick tag on the BR and the BR will always at least make an advance towards first until he hears he is out.

I don't agree with this. Here are two not uncommon sitches that I've seen:

 

1) F2 wants the catch/out (whether he believes he got it or is trying to steal one is immaterial) so that he doesn't need to risk any further action on B/BR. And perhaps there is play at another base that he can make a play on.

2) BR may run, when the pitch catch status is ambiguous (no rule against it), but he's wanting to get F2 to chase him instead of making a play elsewhere. F2 knows he caught the pitch, but is not sure if PU has a catch. Why should F2 have to wonder if further action on B/BR is needed when there are other outs to be had.

 

I think it is just as important to verbalize the "that's a catch" mechanic when the pitch is caught. Why leave either ambiguous case (catch/no catch) a mystery.

 

At higher levels, players should understand the verbal NO catch mechanic on an U3K. If umpires were more consistant about verbalizing, there would be less confusion.