Is this umpire out of control or right in line?

[Concernedcitizen2]

Sorry if this link has been posted before.

 

The person who posted this video blames it all on the umpires.  Most of the commenters side with the umpire.  Your thoughts?

 

http://youtu.be/-7YtrR33aMg

[noumpere]

I generally agree with "most of the commentators" not that in hindsight Im sure the umpires wish they had done a few thigs differently.

[maven]

1. Action begins at 1:20 if you want to skip the first couple pitches.
2. Needs to enforce the batter's box rule.
3. Poor game management throughout ("one more word and you're gone," fuse too short, adversarial tone and body language, making it about him instead of the game "I'm 55 years old, and I'm going to let a 14-year-old kid call me names?")
4. Did he end an inning because of an ejection?
5. Way too much talking, shouting, and arguing.

Conversation with the HC should have gone like this: "Coach, he permitted the pitch to hit him. It was a ball, and dead when it hit him. Now let's go." If he wants to argue, I tell him it's a judgment call, that it might have looked different where he was standing, but we're not arguing judgment. If he still wants to argue, he can do so where I can't see or hear him.

 

Guys like this seem to take everything personally, get way too emotional, and forget that they've brought a gun to a knife fight.

[mjr_2013]

I'd like to point out that the video poster conveniently edited out the few seconds of the batter talking to the umpire.... Probably a good indication that the ejection was deserved.

 

--EDIT--

I love how all Youtube videos include one idiot with an "I GOT IT ON TAPE!!! DON'T WORRY EVERYBODY, I GOT IT ON TAPE!" as if that is supposed to make the umpire say "Oh s***! TIME! We've got a fan over here who got that call on tape! Reset the play!! Sorry sir, I didn't know you were recording my actions! I'll make sure to gain your camera's approval in all future plays!"

 

Not to mention if he is still using "tape" he is stuck in the 90s.

[blue23ll]

So both teams were upset with him? Wow, what a mess.

[Texas Manny]

The only question I have is if after he ejected the batter, and he asked the manager if he had a replacement for him, to which the manager said, "No", then how did the game continue? If he had no substitutes, then that means the team was down to 8 players. By rule, 4.17, the game should have been over, forfeited, and everything else that happened is a mute point.

 

This video sadly appears to be nothing more than made up rulings, chip on shoulder, "I don't want to be here really, anyways." 

 

This was a sad day for baseball, and for the profession of umpiring, to which I resisted even wanting to say anything in this thread. (No offense meant to the OP or participants).

[ricka56]

 

Did he end an inning because of an ejection?

No, I don't think so (HS/USSSA rules). That team didn't have a substitute to replace the ejected player, so the empty spot in the order is an out. If that was the third out, then he got something right.

 

I hope that was just an example of a good umpire having a bad day and bringing it with him onto the field instead of leaving it behind. I can understand not having any tolerance for a mouthy 14 y.o., but nothing a 14 y.o. says should result in one losing their composure.

[blue23ll]

In this day and age, with videos going and cameras in phones, it NEVER pays to be yelling and screaming as an umpire. This is highly unprofessional. You can say what you want, but say it in a one on one conversation with the head coach. There is no need to broadcast it so that the whole field can hear it. And do not, EVER, get into a yelling match with a youth player, EVER.

[grayhawk]

Never, EVER, should the coach be calmer than the umpire. That's exactly what was happening right after the player ejection.

[UMP45]

 

1. Action begins at 1:20 if you want to skip the first couple pitches.
2. Needs to enforce the batter's box rule.
3. Poor game management throughout ("one more word and you're gone," fuse too short, adversarial tone and body language, making it about him instead of the game "I'm 55 years old, and I'm going to let a 14-year-old kid call me names?")
4. Did he end an inning because of an ejection?
5. Way too much talking, shouting, and arguing.

Conversation with the HC should have gone like this: "Coach, he permitted the pitch to hit him. It was a ball, and dead when it hit him. Now let's go." If he wants to argue, I tell him it's a judgment call, that it might have looked different where he was standing, but we're not arguing judgment. If he still wants to argue, he can do so where I can't see or hear him.

 

Guys like this seem to take everything personally, get way too emotional, and forget that they've brought a gun to a knife fight.

 

Why does he need to enforce the batter's box rule?

[noumpere]

The only question I have is if after he ejected the batter, and he asked the manager if he had a replacement for him, to which the manager said, "No", then how did the game continue? If he had no substitutes, then that means the team was down to 8 players. By rule, 4.17, the game should have been over, forfeited, and everything else that happened is a mute point.

 

 

This:

 

 

No, I don't think so (HS/USSSA rules). That team didn't have a substitute to replace the ejected player, so the empty spot in the order is an out. If that was the third out,

[Texas Manny]

 

The only question I have is if after he ejected the batter, and he asked the manager if he had a replacement for him, to which the manager said, "No", then how did the game continue? If he had no substitutes, then that means the team was down to 8 players. By rule, 4.17, the game should have been over, forfeited, and everything else that happened is a mute point.

 

 

This:

 

 

No, I don't think so (HS/USSSA rules). That team didn't have a substitute to replace the ejected player, so the empty spot in the order is an out. If that was the third out,

 

I posted strictly on professional rules. I have never heard of an automatic out for a player who is not on the team. Frankly, that's garbage if it is now the rule. They didn't have that rule back in 1993 when I stopped umpiring.

[grayhawk]

The only question I have is if after he ejected the batter, and he asked the manager if he had a replacement for him, to which the manager said, "No", then how did the game continue? If he had no substitutes, then that means the team was down to 8 players. By rule, 4.17, the game should have been over, forfeited, and everything else that happened is a mute point.

This:

No, I don't think so (HS/USSSA rules). That team didn't have a substitute to replace the ejected player, so the empty spot in the order is an out. If that was the third out,

I posted strictly on professional rules. I have never heard of an automatic out for a player who is not on the team. Frankly, that's garbage if it is now the rule. They didn't have that rule back in 1993 when I stopped umpiring. It's better than having to forfeit the game. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free

[Texas Manny]

 

The only question I have is if after he ejected the batter, and he asked the manager if he had a replacement for him, to which the manager said, "No", then how did the game continue? If he had no substitutes, then that means the team was down to 8 players. By rule, 4.17, the game should have been over, forfeited, and everything else that happened is a mute point.

 

This:

No, I don't think so (HS/USSSA rules). That team didn't have a substitute to replace the ejected player, so the empty spot in the order is an out. If that was the third out,

 

  I posted strictly on professional rules. I have never heard of an automatic out for a player who is not on the team. Frankly, that's garbage if it is now the rule. They didn't have that rule back in 1993 when I stopped umpiring.

It's better than having to forfeit the game.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free

 

Not to me. This rule changes the scope of the game too much. Don't have the players, you lose. Simple as that. Kids need to learn respect, priorities, and commitment, which today, is so sorely lacking.

[ricka56]

 

 

The only question I have is if after he ejected the batter, and he asked the manager if he had a replacement for him, to which the manager said, "No", then how did the game continue? If he had no substitutes, then that means the team was down to 8 players. By rule, 4.17, the game should have been over, forfeited, and everything else that happened is a mute point.

 

 

This:

 

 

No, I don't think so (HS/USSSA rules). That team didn't have a substitute to replace the ejected player, so the empty spot in the order is an out. If that was the third out,

 

I posted strictly on professional rules. I have never heard of an automatic out for a player who is not on the team. Frankly, that's garbage if it is now the rule. They didn't have that rule back in 1993 when I stopped umpiring.

 

Garbage? Some schools having a problem having 9 "players" on a team. Fed rule  4.4.1.f keeps games alive instead of ending in a forfeit. The spirit of HS sports is "supposed to be" participation, not win/lose/forfeit...   yeah, I know

[Texas Manny]

 

 

 

The only question I have is if after he ejected the batter, and he asked the manager if he had a replacement for him, to which the manager said, "No", then how did the game continue? If he had no substitutes, then that means the team was down to 8 players. By rule, 4.17, the game should have been over, forfeited, and everything else that happened is a mute point.

 

 

This:

 

 

No, I don't think so (HS/USSSA rules). That team didn't have a substitute to replace the ejected player, so the empty spot in the order is an out. If that was the third out,

 

I posted strictly on professional rules. I have never heard of an automatic out for a player who is not on the team. Frankly, that's garbage if it is now the rule. They didn't have that rule back in 1993 when I stopped umpiring.

 

Garbage? Some schools having a problem having 9 "players" on a team. Fed rule  4.4.1.f keeps games alive instead of ending in a forfeit. The spirit of HS sports is "supposed to be" participation, not win/lose/forfeit...   yeah, I know

 

Doesn't change my opinion. Baseball is one of those things that I'm a purist. Field 9 or go home.

[FlaUmp22]

 

 

 

 

The only question I have is if after he ejected the batter, and he asked the manager if he had a replacement for him, to which the manager said, "No", then how did the game continue? If he had no substitutes, then that means the team was down to 8 players. By rule, 4.17, the game should have been over, forfeited, and everything else that happened is a mute point.

 

 

This:

 

 

No, I don't think so (HS/USSSA rules). That team didn't have a substitute to replace the ejected player, so the empty spot in the order is an out. If that was the third out,

 

I posted strictly on professional rules. I have never heard of an automatic out for a player who is not on the team. Frankly, that's garbage if it is now the rule. They didn't have that rule back in 1993 when I stopped umpiring.

 

Garbage? Some schools having a problem having 9 "players" on a team. Fed rule  4.4.1.f keeps games alive instead of ending in a forfeit. The spirit of HS sports is "supposed to be" participation, not win/lose/forfeit...   yeah, I know

 

Doesn't change my opinion. Baseball is one of those things that I'm a purist. Field 9 or go home.

 

 

Now I'm not sure about other states but the FHSAA has 6 week suspensions for ejected players regardless the offense (appeals are allowed and it can be less but schools rarely spend the money to appeal), and that is enough of a penalty for the kid that COMMITTED whatever offense it may be... why end the game when the one who caused it is already going to be punished? The rest of the team certainly shouldn't be punished. 

 

I understand where you are coming from but this isn't professional baseball where the game ends and there is another one the next day and 120 more in the season

[Jocko]

The only question I have is if after he ejected the batter, and he asked the manager if he had a replacement for him, to which the manager said, "No", then how did the game continue? If he had no substitutes, then that means the team was down to 8 players. By rule, 4.17, the game should have been over, forfeited, and everything else that happened is a mute point.

  This: 

No, I don't think so (HS/USSSA rules). That team didn't have a substitute to replace the ejected player, so the empty spot in the order is an out. If that was the third out,

I posted strictly on professional rules. I have never heard of an automatic out for a player who is not on the team. Frankly, that's garbage if it is now the rule. They didn't have that rule back in 1993 when I stopped umpiring.

Garbage? Some schools having a problem having 9 "players" on a team. Fed rule  4.4.1.f keeps games alive instead of ending in a forfeit. The spirit of HS sports is "supposed to be" participation, not win/lose/forfeit...   yeah, I know

Doesn't change my opinion. Baseball is one of those things that I'm a purist. Field 9 or go home.there are several rules in fed that I don't agree with. Still gotta enforce em. There are a bunch of laws I disagree with. Still gotta abide by em. Opinions don't mean diddly sh*t when its written in black and white. Like em or not, rules are rules.

[Texas Manny]

 

 

 

 

 

The only question I have is if after he ejected the batter, and he asked the manager if he had a replacement for him, to which the manager said, "No", then how did the game continue? If he had no substitutes, then that means the team was down to 8 players. By rule, 4.17, the game should have been over, forfeited, and everything else that happened is a mute point.

 

 

This:

 

 

No, I don't think so (HS/USSSA rules). That team didn't have a substitute to replace the ejected player, so the empty spot in the order is an out. If that was the third out,

 

I posted strictly on professional rules. I have never heard of an automatic out for a player who is not on the team. Frankly, that's garbage if it is now the rule. They didn't have that rule back in 1993 when I stopped umpiring.

 

Garbage? Some schools having a problem having 9 "players" on a team. Fed rule  4.4.1.f keeps games alive instead of ending in a forfeit. The spirit of HS sports is "supposed to be" participation, not win/lose/forfeit...   yeah, I know

 

Doesn't change my opinion. Baseball is one of those things that I'm a purist. Field 9 or go home.

 

 

Now I'm not sure about other states but the FHSAA has 6 week suspensions for ejected players regardless the offense (appeals are allowed and it can be less but schools rarely spend the money to appeal), and that is enough of a penalty for the kid that COMMITTED whatever offense it may be... why end the game when the one who caused it is already going to be punished? The rest of the team certainly shouldn't be punished. 

 

I understand where you are coming from but this isn't professional baseball where the game ends and there is another one the next day and 120 more in the season

 

I know my stance seems pretty harsh, but I'm sorry, the wussification of sports for kids has gotten out of hand. When I was umpiring back in the late 80's and 90's, if the team didn't have enough players, the game was called off before the start time to prevent loss of umpiring fees and inconveniencing everyone getting to the ballpark, etc. If only 8 players were available at game time, we waited 15 minutes before declaring a forfeiture. On the other side, if you only had nine players, and one of the kids or manager decided to pull a Wally Backmann, and was ejected, then the game would be over, forfeited under Rule 4.17, or league rule which stated that an adult had to be present.

 

Now you can't have the batting order completely bat in an inning, run rules, 8 men on the field, no celebrating on the field, pulling teams off the field because they can't get an out. It's ridiculous as such. I can fully understand safety rules, but I cannot sanction changing the game, or providing a negative sportsmanship issue because little Johnny gets his feelings hurt he loses.

 

I want kids to play baseball as much as anyone else does. I want them to grow up and be honorable, intelligent, well rounded individuals. Part of that, through baseball, is learning what commitment, fair play, hard work, and consequence of action means. Changing rules so much that the fundamentals of the game are perverted, is in of itself a travesty and shouldn't be done.

[Jocko]

I dgaf how old the umpire is. He shouldn't put up with name calling. But he also shouldn't tell everyone his age, talk so much, walk anywhere near the dugout of the team involved in the confrontation. He made a ton of mistakes. His BU did a pretty good job of rodeo clowning.

[mstaylor]

There are several systems that allow playing with eight and counting an out. There are travel ball systems that allow CBO that if a player leaves the game becomes an out. If you are batting eleven and you go down to ten then why call an out. There are some systems that only count the out if the player is lost due to ejection. 

[mstaylor]

Six weeks for an ejection, that's  nuts. All that does is make guys slow to throw. LL still has the stop the game if less than nine. It isn't an automatic forfeit, that's a BOD decision. 

[Texas Manny]

There are several systems that allow playing with eight and counting an out. There are travel ball systems that allow CBO that if a player leaves the game becomes an out. If you are batting eleven and you go down to ten then why call an out. There are some systems that only count the out if the player is lost due to ejection. 

I have come to realize that now. If those are the playing rules, then they would be enforced. To me, it's the equivalent of sticker shock, but I'll get over it.

[JaxRolo]

The only question I have is if after he ejected the batter, and he asked the manager if he had a replacement for him, to which the manager said, "No", then how did the game continue? If he had no substitutes, then that means the team was down to 8 players. By rule, 4.17, the game should have been over, forfeited, and everything else that happened is a mute point.

This:

No, I don't think so (HS/USSSA rules). That team didn't have a substitute to replace the ejected player, so the empty spot in the order is an out. If that was the third out,

I posted strictly on professional rules. I have never heard of an automatic out for a player who is not on the team. Frankly, that's garbage if it is now the rule. They didn't have that rule back in 1993 when I stopped umpiring. Garbage? Some schools having a problem having 9 "players" on a team. Fed rule 4.4.1.f keeps games alive instead of ending in a forfeit. The spirit of HS sports is "supposed to be" participation, not win/lose/forfeit... yeah, I know Doesn't change my opinion. Baseball is one of those things that I'm a purist. Field 9 or go home.there are several rules in fed that I don't agree with. Still gotta enforce em. There are a bunch of laws I disagree with. Still gotta abide by em. Opinions don't mean diddly sh*t when its written in black and white. Like em or not, rules are rules. +1 Simply enforce the rules you are given. No more no less!

[Dannytheman]

Personally, I think the umpire was shocked at the mouth on the kid. I am not defending him, but I watched it three times, and he was blown away by something the kid said.

Did anyone else see the balk at 48 seconds, not called. Seems to me PU lost his cool. Rule was right, enforcement was wrong. Having had a young kid, 11, call me a "rooster"sucker once, I know I was shocked.

 

There was some nice rodeo clown work by BU. Proud of him. PU needed to go other way.