Balk

[Guest Tom]

Runner at second and first.

Infileders at their normal positions not holding a runner on.

Pitcher, from the set position, turns and throws directly to the shortstop.

Is this a balk? Doesn't the pitcher have to throw to an occupied base?

[maven]

No, it's not a balk. Because F1 may legally feint to 2B, he is not required to throw to the base.

[noumpere]

Just because he cant throw to an unoccupied base* doesn't mean he has to throw to an occupied base.

 

* -- with exceptions

[soapbox]

Maven, I must have this wrong.  I understand feinting to 2B is obviously legal.  But, you are telling me that F1 can throw to the SS at normal position?  If that's true, I will have had this wrong in my head for a long time.  Please confirm. 

[Guest Tom]

Soapbox. Thanks for the reply.

My thinking was this that F1 must throw to an occupied base, or fake a throw to second, to help speed up play. Can F1 can't throw to the first baseman if he is not in the vicinity of the bag?

[soapbox]

I believe this is a balk.  Not about speeding up play, but you cannot throw to F3 who's not holding R1 on.  It's deception.  Now true, you can feint to 2B, but if you throw to 2B must be to the base.  You can, however throw to the base the runner is trying to advance.  If I'm wrong on this, and I just re-read the Fed Rule as that is the book closest to me, then I'm sure to hear it times 100 on the site.  And that's fine.  I'd rather be wrong and fix than continue that way.  But to be clear, I've got a balk.  I'm using 6-4-B from the NFHS Rule book to support this.

[Rich Ives]

I believe this is a balk.  Not about speeding up play, but you cannot throw to F3 who's not holding R1 on.  It's deception.  Now true, you can feint to 2B, but if you throw to 2B must be to the base.  You can, however throw to the base the runner is trying to advance.  If I'm wrong on this, and I just re-read the Fed Rule as that is the book closest to me, then I'm sure to hear it times 100 on the site.  And that's fine.  I'd rather be wrong and fix than continue that way.  But to be clear, I've got a balk.  I'm using 6-4-B from the NFHS Rule book to support this.

 

 

MLBUM:  There is no violation if a pitcher attempts a pick-off at second base and, seeing no fielder

covering the bag, throws to the shortstop or second baseman, neither of whom is in the

vicinity of the bag nor is making an actual attempt to retire the runner.

[th3]

 

I believe this is a balk.  Not about speeding up play, but you cannot throw to F3 who's not holding R1 on.  It's deception.  Now true, you can feint to 2B, but if you throw to 2B must be to the base.  You can, however throw to the base the runner is trying to advance.  If I'm wrong on this, and I just re-read the Fed Rule as that is the book closest to me, then I'm sure to hear it times 100 on the site.  And that's fine.  I'd rather be wrong and fix than continue that way.  But to be clear, I've got a balk.  I'm using 6-4-B from the NFHS Rule book to support this.

 

 

MLBUM:  There is no violation if a pitcher attempts a pick-off at second base and, seeing no fielder

covering the bag, throws to the shortstop or second baseman, neither of whom is in the

vicinity of the bag nor is making an actual attempt to retire the runner.

 

That doesnt leave much room for interpretation!

[soapbox]

Rich, and what if F6 is making a play on R2?  The way it is worded leads me to believe this is a balk.

[maven]

If F1 may feint to the base, then he may throw to a fielder who is not in position to make a play on the runner. That's the meaning of the MLBUM comment.

 

Since 3B is the new 1B (no feinting to 3B), F1 will have to throw to the base in both cases, i.e. to a fielder who is in position to make a play on the runner.

[noumpere]

Rich, and what if F6 is making a play on R2?  The way it is worded leads me to believe this is a balk.

as long as the throw is more to second than to first or third, it's legal. (The same is true to third, under the OLD OBR rule, wherever that is used.)

 

First (and third under the new OBR rule, wherever that is used) is different.

[soapbox]

 

I believe this is a balk.  Not about speeding up play, but you cannot throw to F3 who's not holding R1 on.  It's deception.  Now true, you can feint to 2B, but if you throw to 2B must be to the base.  You can, however throw to the base the runner is trying to advance.  If I'm wrong on this, and I just re-read the Fed Rule as that is the book closest to me, then I'm sure to hear it times 100 on the site.  And that's fine.  I'd rather be wrong and fix than continue that way.  But to be clear, I've got a balk.  I'm using 6-4-B from the NFHS Rule book to support this.

 

 

MLBUM:  There is no violation if a pitcher attempts a pick-off at second base and, seeing no fielder

covering the bag, throws to the shortstop or second baseman, neither of whom is in the

vicinity of the bag nor is making an actual attempt to retire the runner.

 

So I guess my only question is if they are trying to put a play on that retires a runner off the bag.  And what about stepping directly towards the base.  Can he step and throw to F6 or must he step towards 2B.  Must say I'm now a bit confused.

[noumpere]

 

 

I believe this is a balk.  Not about speeding up play, but you cannot throw to F3 who's not holding R1 on.  It's deception.  Now true, you can feint to 2B, but if you throw to 2B must be to the base.  You can, however throw to the base the runner is trying to advance.  If I'm wrong on this, and I just re-read the Fed Rule as that is the book closest to me, then I'm sure to hear it times 100 on the site.  And that's fine.  I'd rather be wrong and fix than continue that way.  But to be clear, I've got a balk.  I'm using 6-4-B from the NFHS Rule book to support this.

 

 

MLBUM:  There is no violation if a pitcher attempts a pick-off at second base and, seeing no fielder

covering the bag, throws to the shortstop or second baseman, neither of whom is in the

vicinity of the bag nor is making an actual attempt to retire the runner.

 

So I guess my only question is if they are trying to put a play on that retires a runner off the bag.  And what about stepping directly towards the base.  Can he step and throw to F6 or must he step towards 2B.  Must say I'm now a bit confused.

 

Doesn't matter if theres a play on.

 

And a step must always be made but the only requirement ever for a step is closer to that base than any other -- and that applies at first, second and third.

[grayhawk]

Must step more towards second than first or third.  Same as a step to any base on a pickoff.

 

Don't get confused.  It's really hard to balk to second.  He can spin and feint or throw.  He can reverse pivot and feint or throw.  He can throw to the base, or to F6 or F4 playing off the base.  OBR and Fed are the same in this regard.

 

Throws to first (and third in new OBR) require a step and a throw that is either to the bag, or to the fielder who is making a play on that runner.  What constitutes a "play" is umpire judgement.  Some umpires require the throw to be very near the bag, while others do not.

 

But in the case of second base, neither a play on the runner, nor a throw to the bag, are required.

[Jimurray]

 

 

I believe this is a balk.  Not about speeding up play, but you cannot throw to F3 who's not holding R1 on.  It's deception.  Now true, you can feint to 2B, but if you throw to 2B must be to the base.  You can, however throw to the base the runner is trying to advance.  If I'm wrong on this, and I just re-read the Fed Rule as that is the book closest to me, then I'm sure to hear it times 100 on the site.  And that's fine.  I'd rather be wrong and fix than continue that way.  But to be clear, I've got a balk.  I'm using 6-4-B from the NFHS Rule book to support this.

 

 

MLBUM:  There is no violation if a pitcher attempts a pick-off at second base and, seeing no fielder

covering the bag, throws to the shortstop or second baseman, neither of whom is in the

vicinity of the bag nor is making an actual attempt to retire the runner.

 

So I guess my only question is if they are trying to put a play on that retires a runner off the bag.  And what about stepping directly towards the base.  Can he step and throw to F6 or must he step towards 2B.  Must say I'm now a bit confused.

 

At least you're not trying to call it a balk for delay of game. That's a straw that some have rationalized after being told they've been calling it wrong.

[soapbox]

I feel stupid.  I keep re-reading 6-4b of NFHS book from 2011.  Maybe I'm overthinking, but I keep coming up with balk.  I'm certainly not arguing, and will definitely go with the consensus, but I'm just not seeing it.  Hopefully I will see many more posts and will discuss amongst our own group to make sure I have this clearly in my mind.  Thanks guys (and most recently gals) that may chime in.

[Guest Tom]

I will try to describe the play more accurately.

The right handed picther in the set postion lifts his front foot and turns directly, and throws, to the shortstop at his normal postion between 2cnd and 3rd base. The runner at second had a normal leadoff and was not attemting a steal of 3rd base.

 

My understanding was that from the set position the picther has 3 options.

Deliver the ball to home plate.

Turn directly to a base and throw, (except second base)

Step off the rubber and lower both hands.

 

Thanks for the comments.

[noumpere]

That's exactly the play we (well at least I) envisioned.  And your generally right about the three options.  Throwing to F6 (or F4 for that matter) complies with the second option.  The actual requirement is to step to a base (meaning within 45*) and throw to the base (if its first or third).  So your imposing some small requirements on the move to second that aren't really there -- that's the confusion,.

 

Note too that in your third option, the only requirement is to lower the hands before re-engaging the rubber.  Its not a balk to step off and keep the hands together.

[noumpere]

I feel stupid.  I keep re-reading 6-4b of NFHS book from 2011.  Maybe I'm overthinking, but I keep coming up with balk.  I'm certainly not arguing, and will definitely go with the consensus, but I'm just not seeing it.  Hopefully I will see many more posts and will discuss amongst our own group to make sure I have this clearly in my mind.  Thanks guys (and most recently gals) that may chime in.

I think you must mean 6-2-4b because I don't see 6-4b.  And I think then that you are concerned with the word "directly" in the "step...directly to a base" portion.

 

If both of those are correct, then look at case 6-2-4 Situation B to see how directly is defined when it's to first.  Its the same general definition to the other bases.

[Guest soupcan]

There seems to be some ambiguity in the OBR, they list a set of legal moves from the set position and then describe different balk situations. There is no explanation for things that do not fall within both of these, such as throwing to F6 or F4 (except for the delay of game when not trying to make a play)

[noumpere]

There seems to be some ambiguity in the OBR, they list a set of legal moves from the set position and then describe different balk situations. There is no explanation for things that do not fall within both of these, such as throwing to F6 or F4 (except for the delay of game when not trying to make a play)

Even to the extent that's true the supplamentery materials make it clear -- see the MLBUM reference in post 7 for example.

[Guest BRIAN ELY]

I have an addition to this question.  Same situation.

Runner at second and first.

Infielders at their normal positions not holding a runner on.

Except....

Pitcher, from the set position, turns and throws directly to the First baseman who is no where near the base or the runner.

Is this a balk? Is there a rule about being in the vicinity of the base?

Thanks

 

[grayhawk]

 

I have an addition to this question.  Same situation.

Runner at second and first.

Infielders at their normal positions not holding a runner on.

Except....

Pitcher, from the set position, turns and throws directly to the First baseman who is no where near the base or the runner.

Is this a balk? Is there a rule about being in the vicinity of the base?

Thanks

 

 

It must meet one of two requirements:

 

1.  Throw must be to the base, OR

2.  The umpire judges that they are making a play on the runner

 

In your scenario, neither applies, so it's a balk.

[soupcan]

 

 

I have an addition to this question.  Same situation.

Runner at second and first.

Infielders at their normal positions not holding a runner on.

Except....

Pitcher, from the set position, turns and throws directly to the First baseman who is no where near the base or the runner.

Is this a balk? Is there a rule about being in the vicinity of the base?

Thanks

 

 

It must meet one of two requirements:

 

1.  Throw must be to the base, OR

2.  The umpire judges that they are making a play on the runner

 

In your scenario, neither applies, so it's a balk.

 

I disagree, with a runner on first, the pitcher can throw to F6 without a balk and that does not meet those requirements.

[Magic]

He can absolutely throw to the First Baseman  without him covering 1st. I am not going to penalize a pitcher because the First Baseman screwed up. He satisfied what needed to be satisfied. Now most of the time, when the pitcher turns to through to First and noone is there, he panics and doesn't throw at all. BALK

[maven]

He can absolutely throw to the First Baseman  without him covering 1st. I am not going to penalize a pitcher because the First Baseman screwed up. He satisfied what needed to be satisfied. Now most of the time, when the pitcher turns to through to First and noone is there, he panics and doesn't throw at all. BALK

 

Your ruling is incorrect. By interpretation, "step and throw to a base" means throwing to the fielder at 1B. He must be close enough in the umpire's judgment to make a play on the runner.

 

The Evans balk video has a clip of a pitcher stepping and throwing to 1B with NO FIELDER there. The ball rolls on the ground right over/past the base. This is legal and not a balk, since he has stepped and thrown to the base.

 

If the throw is neither to 1B (or, now, 3B) nor to a fielder making a play on a runner there, it is a balk.

 

Your comment about deciding whom to penalize and when seems not to respect the text, interpretation, or spirit of the balk rules, and needlessly injects your own judgment into the matter.