Place The Runners After OBS

[Mudder]

OBR

 

R1. Batter hits a base hit to RF, R1 rounds 2B on his way to 3B and falls down between 2B and 3B, as a result he goes back to 2B.  The BR is obstructed while going to 2B and is tagged out on his way to 2B.  If its deemed BR would have reached 2B, should he be placed there because of the OBS, and R1 placed at 3B, even though R1 was standing on 2B, or should you just leave BR at 1B and R1 at 2B?

 

Rule cite

[BRUMP]

On edit disregard my answer I misread this.

[JaxRolo]

If I read this correctly R1 is out. He is not protected anywhere.

[BigSimonia]

If I read this correctly R1 is out. He is not protected anywhere.

I must be missing something obvious - why is R1 out?

 

OBR 7.06(a) "Any preceding runners, forced to advance by the award of bases as the penalty for obstruction, shall advance without liability to be put out."

 

See also MLBUM Interp 43(3)

[mstaylor]

I would go with R1,R2. Or just R2 and the BR out. In the OP R1 rounded second and fell down on his way to third, he then returned to second. The BR rounded first, assuming R1  would go to third. The OP says the BR is obstructed going to second. How was he obstructed? If he hadn't been obstructed he would have gone to second and then you have two runners at second. I can't imagine any type of obstruction that would have held him up enough that he could get to second and back to first. If that is true then he is going to be out and the obstruction is irrelevant. 7.06a is always going to be a base but it requires there to be a play being made on the runner. That doesn't seem to be the case here, so it would be 7.06b. Here you award what you think nullifies the obstruction. If you think he could have gotten to second and back to first then put him there. If you think he was trying to stop and go back to first, because the lead runner stopped, and the obstruction kept him from doing that, put him on first. If it is anything else, he's out. 

The obstruction had no affect on what R1 was doing so you can't push him forward. 

[carolinablue]

Mike, sounds like type A to me. The OP said BR ( The obstructed runner ) was tagged out at second. That would mean BR to second and R1 to third. 

[BigSimonia]

Mike, sounds like type A to me. The OP said BR ( The obstructed runner ) was tagged out at second. That would mean BR to second and R1 to third. 

+1.  When in doubt, the simplest answer is usually correct (cf. Occams Razor & Sherlock Holmes)

[BigSimonia]

The obstruction had no affect on what R1 was doing so you can't push him forward. 

 

Not true

[Replacematt]

Mike, sounds like type A to me. The OP said BR ( The obstructed runner ) was tagged out at second. That would mean BR to second and R1 to third. 

 

This isn't necessarily Type A. Type A means the runner is being played upon as the obstruction occurs. If the ball was in the outfield as he was obstructed, for example, this is Type B.

[maven]

Matt is correct, Type B if BR is not played on at the time of OBS.

 

Keep it simple: once BR is tagged, call time, award BR 2B on the OBS, advance R1 to 3B on the award to BR.

 

I do not accept the reasoning that starts by saying the offense would have 2 runners on 2B and someone out. That's giving the defense the benefit of the doubt after they have commited an infraction.

 

Penalize the infraction. The penalty awards bases to the obstructed runner to nullify the obstruction. Don't suspend that penalty because someone else fell down.

[basejester]

Penalize the infraction. The penalty awards bases to the obstructed runner to nullify the obstruction. Don't suspend that penalty because someone else fell down.

The penalty for type B requires that the umpire speculate on the outcome without the obstruction.  That is the penalty.

 

Hindering the runner's progress to a base that doesn't protect him doesn't hurt that runner, therefore (again, assuming B) the award necessary to nullify obstruction is nothing.  You just have to fix whatever obstruction broke.

[basejester]

 

Mike, sounds like type A to me. The OP said BR ( The obstructed runner ) was tagged out at second. That would mean BR to second and R1 to third. 

+1.  When in doubt, the simplest answer is usually correct (cf. Occams Razor & Sherlock Holmes)

 

Occam's Razor doesn't apply here.  We know what happened. 

 

 

  It's not that the simplest thing to *do* is correct.  

[maven]

 

Penalize the infraction. The penalty awards bases to the obstructed runner to nullify the obstruction. Don't suspend that penalty because someone else fell down.

The penalty for type B requires that the umpire speculate on the outcome without the obstruction.  That is the penalty.

 

Hindering the runner's progress to a base that doesn't protect him doesn't hurt that runner, therefore (again, assuming B) the award necessary to nullify obstruction is nothing.  You just have to fix whatever obstruction broke.

 

 

I don't follow your reasoning. BR gets 2B on this play without the OBS. To nullify the OBS, award 2B. Nothing else is relevant to determining the award.

[basejester]

 

I don't follow your reasoning. BR gets 2B on this play without the OBS. To nullify the OBS, award 2B. Nothing else is relevant to determining the award.

The BR "gets to 2B" where he would be tagged out if there were no obstruction. He's just as much in jeopardy on 2B as he is on a patch of dandelions. The obstruction didn't cause the out; therefore, there's no basis for nullifying the out.

7.06

. . .

(b) If no play is being made on the obstructed runner, the play shall proceed until no

further action is possible. The umpire shall then call “Time†and impose such

penalties, if any, as in his judgment will nullify the act of obstruction.

[Thunderheads]

 

I don't follow your reasoning. BR gets 2B on this play without the OBS. To nullify the OBS, award 2B. Nothing else is relevant to determining the award.

The BR "gets to 2B" where he would be tagged out if there were no obstruction. He's just as much in jeopardy on 2B as he is on a patch of dandelions. The obstruction didn't cause the out; therefore, there's no basis for nullifying the out.

7.06

. . .

(b) If no play is being made on the obstructed runner, the play shall proceed until no

further action is possible. The umpire shall then call “Time” and impose such

penalties, if any, as in his judgment will nullify the act of obstruction.

 

Place your runners according to the OP then please ..........

[maven]

 

The BR "gets to 2B" where he would be tagged out if there were no obstruction. He's just as much in jeopardy on 2B as he is on a patch of dandelions. The obstruction didn't cause the out; therefore, there's no basis for nullifying the out.

 

This is the part of your reasoning that I reject. I'm awarding the base that nullifies the OBS. I don't care where the other runners are or what they've done (they're not protected, of course, so in that sense I care, but irrelevant here).

 

BR cannot be put out at 2B, because he's protected to there. Once he's tagged there (if that's what happens), I'll kill it, award him 2B, and bump R2 to 3B.

[bam]

In FED this is easy - you wind up with R2 R3 since OBS ALWAYS requires a base advance and moves runners forced to advance.

 

In OBR, the rule allows the umpires to "nullify" the act of OBS.  It's type B so you let the action play out.  You could make a case for calling either BR or R1 out, since R1 prevented BR from legally occupying 2d base.  If it were me, I'm calling R1 out and awarding BR 2d. 

 

Then I'm getting ready to throw someone out. 

[mstaylor]

If this is type B as I suspect then it is not a punitive award, it is simply nullifying the obstruction. That can mean he is protected back to first. Without seeing the play, where the runners were, where he was obstructed, how severely, it is impossible to decide to push him forward or return him to first. If you are protecting him back to first, he is out. The fact remains the BR had no business going to second, there is already a runner there. We need more info on where everything happened. 

[basejester]

 

Place your runners according to the OP then please ..........

BR is out. R1 at 2B.

[Thunderheads]

 

Place your runners according to the OP then please ..........

BR is out. R1 at 2B.

 

ok ...that's what I thought you were saying ................ OBR only as in the OP

[Mudder]

We need more info on where everything happened. 

 

That's what I thought as well, this was an exam question and I worded it here exactly as it was worded on the exam, except the exam added "Ump placed BR at 2B and R1 at 3B, is this correct  T or F ? "

[basejester]

 

The BR "gets to 2B" where he would be tagged out if there were no obstruction. He's just as much in jeopardy on 2B as he is on a patch of dandelions. The obstruction didn't cause the out; therefore, there's no basis for nullifying the out.

 

This is the part of your reasoning that I reject. I'm awarding the base that nullifies the OBS.

You're begging the question. Awarding a base doesn't nullify the OBS.

"Awarding bases" and "Protecting the runner to base X" are mental processes but not the actual rule. The rule is to do whatever it takes to nullify the obsruction.

I don't care where the other runners are or what they've done (they're not protected, of course, so in that sense I care, but irrelevant here).

 

BR cannot be put out at 2B, because he's protected to there. Once he's tagged there (if that's what happens), I'll kill it, award him 2B, and bump R2 to 3B.

If you place the runners on 2B and 3B, you are saying that the runners would have been on 2B and 3B had there been no obstruction.

[mstaylor]

As Mona Lisa Vito so aptly said,"That's a BS question." 

http://www.killerclips.com/clip.php?id=77&qid=727 

[noumpere]

If it was type A then the umpire in the test question was right and if it was Type B then the umpire in the test question was wrong.

 

determining which it was is why we get the big $$$.

[Dragon29]

What am I missing?  I think this is simpler than people are making it.

 

BR obstructed (Type B) going to 2B

If, in the umpire's judgment, he would have made it to 2B w/o the OBS, allow the play to finish; when BR is tagged, call 'Time', re-announce the OBS and award BR 2B & (by rule) send R1 to 3B.

If, in the umpire's judgment, he would not have made it to 2B, then the OBS is already nullified, call it as it plays out. 

 

Mike - I see your point about how to treat the BR had he decided to turn around based upon R1 slipping, but the OP doesn't say anything about that.  Just going by the OP, I can't see taking what R1 did into account.

 

But - this is a great, big HTBT!