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Ring 'em Up

Ring 'em Up

Posted
Posted

i had a case yesterday during a HS JV game:

 

F1 throws a curve, B1 thinks its going to hit him and moves to keep clear by leading forward, and ducking his head..  his head is now 3 inches over the plate where where the slow curve bounced of the 'top' of his helmet.  I called ball and called out "batter leaned forward" ... well of course the coach came running out, and i told him what happened and he said "that's a first..! "   i let it go and walked back to the dish, and started the game back up.

 

If the batter had stayed in the batters box, and not moved... the ball would have never hit him.  my mentor said that "i would have let him take first", but after i mentioned that if the batter would have not leaned forward he would have never got hit, he said "well then it's a judgement call"

 

Your opinion?

 

Ron-

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BT_Blue
BT_Blue

A batter hit by a pitch inside the strike zone is a dead ball strike. You should immediately call time (like you would with any HBP) and inform the batter that he is to remain at the plate. Then state

Stan W.
Stan W.

No you wont.....and the vast majority of us have rules we learned the exact same way..............in umpiring good judgment and good rules application comes from study and experience......and somtimes

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BT_Blue

BT_Blue

Posted
Posted

A batter hit by a pitch inside the strike zone is a dead ball strike. You should immediately call time (like you would with any HBP) and inform the batter that he is to remain at the plate. Then state that he was hit in the zone by a pitch and that it is a dead ball strike. All of this should be done in a loud, confident voice. Do not let the offense gain an advantage by being able to intentionally get hit by a pitch and get first base.

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Richvee

Richvee

Posted
Posted

Of course it's a HTBT to say for sure, but....

1. Any time the batter is hit... Immediate  dead ball.

2. If you think B1 ducked into the strike zone and the ball struck him in the strike zone, it's a dead ball, strike. 

3. If he ducked to get out of the way, and it hit him, and contact was not in the strike zone, you have a HBP. 

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BT_Blue

BT_Blue

Posted
Posted

An easy trick to determine whether to keep the batter at the plate or not. 1) batter goes away from the pitch - HBP give him first 2) batter goes into pitch - dead ball keep him at the plate

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semper_fi_72

semper_fi_72

Posted
Posted

i had a case yesterday during a HS JV game:

 

F1 throws a curve, B1 thinks its going to hit him and moves to keep clear by leading forward, and ducking his head..  his head is now 3 inches over the plate where where the slow curve bounced of the 'top' of his helmet.  I called ball and called out "batter leaned forward" ... well of course the coach came running out, and i told him what happened and he said "that's a first..! "   i let it go and walked back to the dish, and started the game back up.

 

If the batter had stayed in the batters box, and not moved... the ball would have never hit him.  my mentor said that "i would have let him take first", but after i mentioned that if the batter would have not leaned forward he would have never got hit, he said "well then it's a judgement call"

 

Your opinion?

 

Ron-

If you called it a ball, why did you call the batter out?

That doesn't make sense to me.

I also question your mentors response and what he would have done.

No batter is ever getting awarded first base if he gets hit in the strike zone.

It is a immediate dead ball and a strike.

If strike 3 he is out.

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Ring 'em Up

Ring 'em Up

Posted
  • Author
Posted

i had a case yesterday during a HS JV game:

 

F1 throws a curve, B1 thinks its going to hit him and moves to keep clear by leading forward, and ducking his head..  his head is now 3 inches over the plate where where the slow curve bounced of the 'top' of his helmet.  I called ball and called out "batter leaned forward" ... well of course the coach came running out, and i told him what happened and he said "that's a first..! "   i let it go and walked back to the dish, and started the game back up.

 

If the batter had stayed in the batters box, and not moved... the ball would have never hit him.  my mentor said that "i would have let him take first", but after i mentioned that if the batter would have not leaned forward he would have never got hit, he said "well then it's a judgement call"

 

Your opinion?

 

Ron-

If you called it a ball, why did you call the batter out?

That doesn't make sense to me.

I also question your mentors response and what he would have done.

No batter is ever getting awarded first base if he gets hit in the strike zone.

It is a immediate dead ball and a strike.

If strike 3 he is out.

 

.

my mentor was not there, but the instructional chair was there from our unit, he (and my mentor after i called him) told me the correct call was to call out " Time | Dead Ball Strike | Battor was leaning over the strike zone | then give the hammer for a strike"

 

i never called the batter out..  if you look, you'll see i was 'calling out verbally'.

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Rich Ives

Rich Ives

Posted
Posted

 

i had a case yesterday during a HS JV game:

 

F1 throws a curve, B1 thinks its going to hit him and moves to keep clear by leading forward, and ducking his head..  his head is now 3 inches over the plate where where the slow curve bounced of the 'top' of his helmet.  I called ball and called out "batter leaned forward" ... well of course the coach came running out, and i told him what happened and he said "that's a first..! "   i let it go and walked back to the dish, and started the game back up.

 

If the batter had stayed in the batters box, and not moved... the ball would have never hit him.  my mentor said that "i would have let him take first", but after i mentioned that if the batter would have not leaned forward he would have never got hit, he said "well then it's a judgement call"

 

Your opinion?

 

Ron-

If you called it a ball, why did you call the batter out?

That doesn't make sense to me.

I also question your mentors response and what he would have done.

No batter is ever getting awarded first base if he gets hit in the strike zone.

It is a immediate dead ball and a strike.

If strike 3 he is out.

 

.

my mentor was not there, but the instructional chair was there from our unit, he (and my mentor after i called him) told me the correct call was to call out " Time | Dead Ball Strike | Battor was leaning over the strike zone | then give the hammer for a strike"

 

i never called the batter out..  if you look, you'll see i was 'calling out verbally'.

 

If you called the pitch a ball then the batter was not hit in the strike zone so it's a HBP.

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amarillo

amarillo

Posted
Posted

Rich

In the Fed book 7.3.4 says the pitch can can be a ball or strike. And the batter remains at bat for permitting the ball to hit him. Also cited in 8.1.1d 1

One would then have to judge intent if the ball was out of the strike zone.

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Replacematt

Replacematt

Posted
Posted

i had a case yesterday during a HS JV game:

 

F1 throws a curve, B1 thinks its going to hit him and moves to keep clear by leading forward, and ducking his head..  his head is now 3 inches over the plate where where the slow curve bounced of the 'top' of his helmet.  I called ball and called out "batter leaned forward" ... well of course the coach came running out, and i told him what happened and he said "that's a first..! "   i let it go and walked back to the dish, and started the game back up.

 

If the batter had stayed in the batters box, and not moved... the ball would have never hit him.  my mentor said that "i would have let him take first", but after i mentioned that if the batter would have not leaned forward he would have never got hit, he said "well then it's a judgement call"

 

Your opinion?

 

Ron-

 

HBP. Using the bolded parts above, you judged it was an attempt to avoid getting hit, and it wasn't a strike.

  • 0
Rich Ives

Rich Ives

Posted
Posted

Rich

In the Fed book 7.3.4 says the pitch can can be a ball or strike. And the batter remains at bat for permitting the ball to hit him. Also cited in 8.1.1d 1

One would then have to judge intent if the ball was out of the strike zone.

 

 

Permitting the ball to hit him was not part of the play. Read the OP.  "B1 thinks its going to hit him"  The batter ducked - happened to lean over the plate in doing so, and got hit by the pitch.  No way it's a permitted the ball to hit him play.  As the PU called the pitch a ball the batter was not hit by a strike - ergo it's a HBP.

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Ring 'em Up

Ring 'em Up

Posted
  • Author
Posted

i had a case yesterday during a HS JV game:

 

F1 throws a curve, B1 thinks its going to hit him and moves to keep clear by leading forward, and ducking his head..  his head is now 3 inches over the plate where where the slow curve bounced of the 'top' of his helmet.  I called ball and called out "batter leaned forward" ... well of course the coach came running out, and i told him what happened and he said "that's a first..! "   i let it go and walked back to the dish, and started the game back up.

 

If the batter had stayed in the batters box, and not moved... the ball would have never hit him.  my mentor said that "i would have let him take first", but after i mentioned that if the batter would have not leaned forward he would have never got hit, he said "well then it's a judgement call"

 

Your opinion?

 

Ron-

 

HBP. Using the bolded parts above, you judged it was an attempt to avoid getting hit, and it wasn't a strike.

.

.

let me clarify:  if the battor had not moved, the pitch "a curve" would have been a strike.  by the battor lowering his head and leaning forward, he was attempting to 'not get hit'.  this said, by leaning forward his head is now atleast 3" over the plate and into the strike zone. (my son is a pitcher only at his HS.  he throws the exact same way this pitcher did.. the ball is released just to the left of battors head (right handed battor), the ball curves to the left, loses velocity and drops in for the strike).  hence the reason this battor leaned forward, and ducked his head.

 

as mentioned using 8.1.1.d1, wouldn't this be a dead ball strike?

 

Oh.. and this happened in my very first game.. it was a scheduled 14 inning scrimmage

ron-

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Stan W.

Stan W.

Posted
Posted

Thanks for the responses...!  i'll never forget this rule now..  

 

ron-

 

No you wont.....and the vast majority of us have rules we learned the exact same way..............in umpiring good judgment and good rules application comes from study and experience......and somtimes that experience comes from past bad judgment..... 

 

live and learn brother ......

  • Like 1
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Rich Ives

Rich Ives

Posted
Posted

 

i had a case yesterday during a HS JV game:

 

F1 throws a curve, B1 thinks its going to hit him and moves to keep clear by leading forward, and ducking his head..  his head is now 3 inches over the plate where where the slow curve bounced of the 'top' of his helmet.  I called ball and called out "batter leaned forward" ... well of course the coach came running out, and i told him what happened and he said "that's a first..! "   i let it go and walked back to the dish, and started the game back up.

 

If the batter had stayed in the batters box, and not moved... the ball would have never hit him.  my mentor said that "i would have let him take first", but after i mentioned that if the batter would have not leaned forward he would have never got hit, he said "well then it's a judgement call"

 

Your opinion?

 

Ron-

 

HBP. Using the bolded parts above, you judged it was an attempt to avoid getting hit, and it wasn't a strike.

.

.

let me clarify:  if the battor had not moved, the pitch "a curve" would have been a strike.  by the battor lowering his head and leaning forward, he was attempting to 'not get hit'.  this said, by leaning forward his head is now atleast 3" over the plate and into the strike zone. (my son is a pitcher only at his HS.  he throws the exact same way this pitcher did.. the ball is released just to the left of battors head (right handed battor), the ball curves to the left, loses velocity and drops in for the strike).  hence the reason this battor leaned forward, and ducked his head.

 

as mentioned using 8.1.1.d1, wouldn't this be a dead ball strike?

 

Oh.. and this happened in my very first game.. it was a scheduled 14 inning scrimmage

ron-

 

 

In the OP you said you called it a ball.  Therefore it's not a dead ball strike.  Therefore it's a HBP.

 

"Woulda been a strike" doesn't matter - it wasn't. You determined that when you called it a ball.

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Big Red

Big Red

Posted
Posted

 >

"let me clarify: if the battor had not moved, the pitch "a curve" would have been a strike. by the battor lowering his head and leaning forward, he was attempting to 'not get hit'. this said, by leaning forward his head is now atleast 3" over the plate and into the strike zone. (my son is a pitcher only at his HS. he throws the exact same way this pitcher did.. the ball is released just to the left of battors head (right handed battor), the ball curves to the left, loses velocity and drops in for the strike). hence the reason this battor leaned forward, and ducked his head.

 

as mentioned using 8.1.1.d1, wouldn't this be a dead ball strike?

 

Oh.. and this happened in my very first game.. it was a scheduled 14 inning scrimmage

ron-"

>

 

 

Ron,

Yes, it is a dead ball strike and the follow-up info your instructional chair gave you on how to handle it is spot-on (though I personally would've stated, "Batter was struck by a pitch in the strike zone.").

This really isn't all that uncommon, especially when you work a level of ball where the pitchers can throw effective curve-balls and most have seen this before...batter vapor-locks on a hard-breaking curve and moves toward plate instead of away.

However, intent of batter has nothing to do with it....if he was struck by a pitch in the strike zone, it's a strike, dead ball and the batter stays there with both body and ego bruised. The info bolded above from your previous post highlights this.

And, as you found out, you will most likely get to employ your game management skills either way. This is one of those calls where you have to sell it and come out with your call/announcement in a bold and definitive manner.

 

However, the key from your OP is that you called it a ball, and as Rich points out you certainly won't sell the "permitted the ball to hit him" bidness based on your description. As stated, HBP...dead ball and batter gets first base.

 

And Stan nails it...those self-critiquing mistakes we make on the field are most often our best learning moments. Keep on keeping on!

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BalkHawk

BalkHawk

Posted
Posted

"Time. He's in the strike zone." Then, say the count, or if you're lucky, "strike three, batter's out."

 

I have to say that I highly doubt your 3" estimation. I would guess that if you thought about it, the batter probably ducked to around thigh level. That's 'time' and a strike. If he really was simulating a push-up and his head was 3" off the dirt, I would have HBP, however, you can get 'time' and a ball theoretically.It almost has to be the batter intentionally getting hit by a pitch that could never be called a strike.

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basejester

basejester

Posted
Posted

"Time. He's in the strike zone." Then, say the count, or if you're lucky, "strike three, batter's out."

 

I have to say that I highly doubt your 3" estimation. I would guess that if you thought about it, the batter probably ducked to around thigh level. That's 'time' and a strike. If he really was simulating a push-up and his head was 3" off the dirt, . . .

He meant 3" laterally, from the edge of the plate.
  • 0
mstaylor

mstaylor

Posted
Posted

I kept a batter like that in a varsity game, thought the coach was going to have a stroke. All he could say was it hit him in the head. I told that is true but it was in the zone, so it is a strike. To this day he brings it up. 

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Rich Ives

Rich Ives

Posted
Posted

I kept a batter like that in a varsity game, thought the coach was going to have a stroke. All he could say was it hit him in the head. I told that is true but it was in the zone, so it is a strike. To this day he brings it up. 

 

 

It takes some real effort to get your head into the strike zone. Not to mention having it be empty. How did the kid manage to do it?

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Rich Ives

Rich Ives

Posted
Posted

He bent over expecting the ball to go over his back, broke across the plate and hit his helmet. 

 

 

He bailed his head toward the plate?  Wow! 99.47% of batters either drop like a rock, turn their back, or fall backwards. Really was an empty head.

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