Runner interference

[jjskitours]

R1 on 1st base, hit-and-run is on as B1 hits a ground ball towards the 2nd base position which has been vacated by F4, who is covering the bag at 2nd. The ground ball strikes R1 advancing from 1st base. Is he out under NF rules? I know he is out in MLB.

[noumpere]

Both HS and college seem to use the string theory here so if no infielder had a play then hes not out in hs or college rules but a strong benefit of the doubt goes to the defense here

[24sdad]

5.1.1

• 
  a fair batted ball:
  
  1. 
     touches a runner or an umpire before touching any fielder and before passing any fielder other than the pitcher,
     
     
  2. 
     touches a runner after passing through or by an infielder and another infielder could have made a play on the ball,
     

8.4.2 - Runner is out when

• 
  is contacted by a fair batted ball before it touches an infielder, or after it passes any infielder, except the pitcher, and the umpire is convinced that another infielder has a play (5-1-1f, 6-1-5).
  

Here is the closest case play I could find:

8.4.2 SITUATION J: With R1 on second, B2 hits toward second. The batted ball hits R1 while he is standing on second or while he is on his way to third. F4 and F6 (a) are playing deep behind the baseline or B - F6 is playing in front of the baseline. RULING: In (a), the ball is dead immediately. R1 is out and B2 is awarded first base. In B - the touching is ignored unless it is ruled intentional, and the ball remains live because no other infielder had a chance to make a play on the batted ball. (5-1-1f)

I know this is not an exact case play, and your situation involves a ground ball where no one was in the area to field it. FED seems to stick to their guns regarding unless the ball PASSES a fielder other than the pitcher (and no other fielder had an opportunity to field the ball) the runner is in jeopardy. Unless I am reading this incorrectly, the ball must pass F4 or you have an out.

[johnnyg08]

I will let others chime in here, but if you don't get an out here, this seems to be the $hitty end of the stick type of play.

I do know that there are different schools of thought on this though between Fed and NCAA/OBR

[UmpJM]

If the F4 is farther away from home plate than R1 when R1 is hit by the ball, it's offensive interference. The ball is dead, R1 is out, and the BR is awarded 1B. Even in FED.

JM

[scrounge]

Even if F4 vacated and had no play, the rule still requires that the ball pass an infielder other than the pitcher. If not, the second clause never comes into effect. Out.

[jjskitours]

Both HS and college seem to use the string theory here so if no infielder had a play then hes not out in hs or college rules but a strong benefit of the doubt goes to the defense here

OR

If the F4 is farther away from home plate than R1 when R1 is hit by the ball, it's offensive interference. The ball is dead, R1 is out, and the BR is awarded 1B. Even in FED.

These two views seem to be in conflict. Do either of you have any reference (J/R, Case Book, PBUC, etc) to support your position. I know under MLB it is an out and is supported by MLBUM Rule Interpretations. I know from Jim Evans they talk about infielder being within a step and a reach when defining ball going "by" the infielder.

My question is strictly about FED and if there is any authoritative support because I have leaned towards the "string theory" as noted by noumpere. I also have looked at the NF Case Book 8.4.2 SITUATION J as pointed out by 24sdad. Of course that example with F6 in front of baseline would imply F6 CLOSER to HP than R1 and therefore,

not out. This would be in line with UmpJM's statement.

In my opening example I have R1 and F4 in a similar line, but of course with F4 at or near 2nd base, he would be farther away from HP than R1 running in between 1st and 2nd. If there is some support for the "farther away" theory, I sure would like to have it.

[mstaylor]

Fed uses the string theory as stated above but if the fielder is deeper than the runner then it is an out in all codes. The relevance of the string theory is if both the F4 and F3 were closer to home but no fielder has no play then the runner is not out.

[noumpere]

Both HS and college seem to use the string theory here so if no infielder had a play then hes not out in hs or college rules but a strong benefit of the doubt goes to the defense here

OR

If the F4 is farther away from home plate than R1 when R1 is hit by the ball, it's offensive interference. The ball is dead, R1 is out, and the BR is awarded 1B. Even in FED.

These two views seem to be in conflict.

I dont think they are in conflict at all. In your play I assumed F3 was holding the runner on so when the pitch was thrown and F3 comes off the bag hes closer to the plate than the runner. If F4 is covering the base then he's probably near it when the runner is hit. So the runnermioght of been behind the string between F3 and F4 and wth no other play it's by rule play on. If the runner was in front of the string then its an out. Benefit of the doubt to the second case.

[jjskitours]

I now better understand the "string theory", but where in FED does it speak to this. I can't recall reading anything about this in the Rules or Case Book.

[UmpJM]

jj,

Rule: 8-4-2k

Case: 8.4.2J

JM

[noumpere]

I now better understand the "string theory", but where in FED does it speak to this. I can't recall reading anything about this in the Rules or Case Book.

I dont think theres any official HS publication that calls it that. I first read about it on the internet in 1996 or so. Basically you draw a line from F3 to F4 to F6 to F5 and if the ball crosses that line then the runner is not out and if the ball doesn't cross that line then the runner is out. And Im sure you could come up with some shift or play where the theory doesnt work but its helpful in understanding the difference in philosophy between the HS rule and the pro rule.

[Jocko]

Could it be said that if you have no fielder protected, play on? This seems to be the case.

[scrounge]

I now better understand the "string theory", but where in FED does it speak to this. I can't recall reading anything about this in the Rules or Case Book.

I dont think theres any official HS publication that calls it that. I first read about it on the internet in 1996 or so. Basically you draw a line from F3 to F4 to F6 to F5 and if the ball crosses that line then the runner is not out and if the ball doesn't cross that line then the runner is out. And Im sure you could come up with some shift or play where the theory doesnt work but its helpful in understanding the difference in philosophy between the HS rule and the pro rule.

The plain language of the rule supports that. If the ball hasn't passed a fielder other than the pitcher, it's interference regardless of where those fielders are or if they had a play or anything. ONLY if the first test is "yes" does the second clause of the "other fielder having a play" test come into operation.

[Thunderheads]

jj,

Rule: 8-4-2k

Case: 8.4.2J

JM

why doesn't this take care of everything here? :HS

[BT_Blue]

I believe this is a grey area here. In terms of a "string theory" you can always think of it this way... second base is the furthest point "north" on the ballfield. Thus if the ball makes contact with R1 he is out.

[Fittske24]

Let’s dissect 8.4.2(k)

Runner is out when:

(k) is contacted by a fair batted ball before it touches an infielder, or after it passes any infielder, except the pitcher, and the umpire is convinced that another infielder has a play

Rule (k) gives you two ways that a runner can be called out. The first way is when a runner is "contacted by a fair batted ball BEFORE it touches an infielder." (This includes the pitcher) The second way is "AFTER it ( fair batted ball) passes any infielder, except the pitcher, (the runner is out if contacted by the fair batted ball ) IF the umpire is convinced that another infielder has a play." For the second half of this rule to be enforced, the ball has to have passed an infielder except the pitcher.

Now in the original play:

"R1 on 1st base, hit-and-run is on as B1 hits a ground ball towards the 2nd base position which has been vacated by F4, who is covering the bag at 2nd. The ground ball strikes R1 advancing from 1st base."

R1 is hit by the batted ball while advancing to 2nd on a steal/hit-and-run. When R1 is hit, the ball has not yet passed or has not been touched by an infielder. In order for the “the umpire is convinced that another infielder has a play†part of the rule to come into play, the batted ball has to pass any infielder (Except the pitcher). Since this did not happen, The runner is OUT because he was touched by a fair batted ball before it passes an infielder.

[Jocko]

Let’s dissect 8.4.2(k)

Runner is out when:

(k) is contacted by a fair batted ball before it touches an infielder, or after it passes any infielder, except the pitcher, and the umpire is convinced that another infielder has a play

Rule (k) gives you two ways that a runner can be called out. The first way is when a runner is "contacted by a fair batted ball BEFORE it touches an infielder." (This includes the pitcher) The second way is "AFTER it ( fair batted ball) passes any infielder, except the pitcher, (the runner is out if contacted by the fair batted ball ) IF the umpire is convinced that another infielder has a play." For the second half of this rule to be enforced, the ball has to have passed an infielder except the pitcher.

Now in the original play:

"R1 on 1st base, hit-and-run is on as B1 hits a ground ball towards the 2nd base position which has been vacated by F4, who is covering the bag at 2nd. The ground ball strikes R1 advancing from 1st base."

R1 is hit by the batted ball while advancing to 2nd on a steal/hit-and-run. When R1 is hit, the ball has not yet passed or has not been touched by an infielder. In order for the “the umpire is convinced that another infielder has a play†part of the rule to come into play, the batted ball has to pass any infielder (Except the pitcher). Since this did not happen, The runner is OUT because he was touched by a fair batted ball before it passes an infielder.

Thanks, Ken. That is concise and accurate and definitive. Good form.

[noumpere]

The runner is OUT because he was touched by a fair batted ball before it passes an infielder.

Thats the part that wsnt and might not still be clear in the original play. Wether the ball was beyond the second baseman when the runner was hit or not. Clearly if it wasnt the it hadnt passed the "String" and the runner is out. If it was then it had passed the "String" and the runner is not out in HS. The runner is still out in pro rules here. "Past" in pro rules means through or immediately by - iow the runner thougth the ball could of been fielded so the runner is now protected.

Its a basic different philosophy between the two rules sets. Inpro the philosophy is that the runner is out if hes hit (and yes there are exceptions). In HS the runner is out only if he "ineterferes" (and agan there are exceptions and interference isnt quite as precise as in some other rules).