Having Trouble Letting This Go.

[bpate]

Situation:

USSSA 12U Tournament.

0 out R1,R2.

Ball hit to centerfield fence. My runner on 2nd runs in an indirect path to 3rd. (semi circle torwards pitcher to run around SS and 3rd base obstruction.) Umpire calls him out for "being out of the baseline." I approached the umpire asked what was your call. "your player was way out of he baseline,he's out." I asked did my player run into someone making a play (thinking he had interference). Answer no. I then asked did anyone ever attempt to tag my runner. Answer no. I then said you can't have an out for baseline unless you have a tag attempt. Answer " Your player was too far out of the baseline, he's out." My response " I am protesting your call. 7.0.8 isn't met in this situation." Director comes to field and sides with the umpire. We play on and finish the game. The entire incident was handled without emotion and without putting on a show. My problem is that I can't seem to let it go. I really want the director and umpire to understand 7.0.8 and that the call was blown. Based on what I have read here, I had better not bring it to the next game. Looking for advice.

On edit-- I was coaching in this one.

[BretMan]

It's always nice when the person responsible for reviewing a protest actually has some grasp on the rule being protested. This fellow obviously doesn't.

I would send the TD a polite email with the rule book citations and any additional interpretations or case plays that apply. I'd also ask him to please share the included information with his umpire, in the interest of assuring that the correct call is made in future games.

[yawetag]

When you do send the email, make sure you're using 7.08, not 7.0.8.

[sdix00]

Better yet, you may want to simply request an explanation for his ruling. Coming out of the gate with proof that he was wrong may be an issue. Also, maybe he had a different reason for siding with the umpire.

If you ask him for an explanation and a rule citation, this will force him to look it up himself in order to support his response.

[yawetag]

Better yet, you may want to simply request an explanation for his ruling. Coming out of the gate with proof that he was wrong may be an issue. Also, maybe he had a different reason for siding with the umpire.

If you ask him for an explanation and a rule citation, this will force him to look it up himself in order to support his response.

Great point. I'd think something along the lines of "Rick, I have a question about the incident at the ballgame on Friday evening. I was hoping you could tell me the applicable rule used in upholding the umpire's ruling on the field."

[dumbdumb]

You might as well chill out no matter how competitive or non-competitive you are.

There are many areas that are just lucky to have umpires show up, much less worry about the total quality of those working the games. Just because it says tournament, doesn't suddenly mean you are going to get the D1 umpires who have the day off.

It does not matter that the kids deserve to have Doug Harvey for all their games, it just isn't going to happen. You are not going to get the caliber of umpires who are on this board many many times.

They are doing the best they can. If you personally have many many extra hours to constantly read the rules and do nothing else in you life, then that is great. Many who go into this just don't have the time to put the amount of study into umpiring that others do and they just do the best they can.

On another note, if these umpires you run into are bad, but they actually care, you can hope they went home and pulled out the book and now know that they are wrong. Many umpires have missed rules when they first started that they would not make now. Of course there may be a few who have never missed anything.

You did the best you could do for your team given the circumstances. Provided things happened just as you say (you would be suprised what umpires have found out coaches said to the assignor when complaining about a call or rule that you wouldn't believe) you have done the best that you could for your team by protesting but having the protest denied, although you were 100% correct.

Think about how Joe Brinkman and Tim McClelland felt when they were "right with the rule" but the commissioner overturned them in the George Brett incident, rather than back them up and then immediately change the rule after that incident so it would never happen again.

Always remember, in the scheme of life, what did this improper ruling mean in the game of life. Teach your kids that they do not get everything they want in life, life is not always fair, or, do you want to teach the squeaky wheel gets the oil and I only want an unfair advantage philosophy no matter what in life, so you can gloat whenever you prove your point whenyou are right and someone else is wrong.

Your choice

Let it go.

[bpate]

dumbdumb, you hit the nail on the head with the situation. We don't get tier 1 umpires and in fact probably do good to get umpires at all of the games. Proving a point now will benefit me little (might feel good). I will take a copy of the rule with me in case the umpire wishes to bring it up but I will not persue it any further with him. Hopefully, he has already looked it up for himself. As an umpire myself, I want to make sure that I handle this with class and that's why I am seeking advice. ----On an side note, it was very difficult not to break out the "I'm an umpire and you're wrong line." :smachhead:

[Rich Ives]

You SHOULD expect the TD to know the rule. As the handler of protests it's reasonable to expect hism to rule correctly.

[dumbdumb]

This should put things in perspective for you and reinforce what I was trying to say. Just be glad you are a class act and understand, and after reading below, I think you can easily, "let it go".

Look at what this coach has done to himself and what he is going to put his family through. His friends, family, co-workers, company and everyone is going to see this. This is embarrassing and disgusting and "win at all cost" has no place in LL or any of athletics period.

http://thetimes-trib...1#axzz1stky5ZM4

http://wnep.com/2012...coach-arrested/

Just by your actions as coach you are sending life messages to all the kids you are coaching. What messages do you want to send by your actions and deportment during the game to the players, umpires, other coaches and parents. Your character, class and respect for athletics and the game are on display whenever you take the field as a coach.

Sometimes you are not just coaching an important game of baseball, you are coaching the biggest and most important game of all. The game of life.

[sdix00]

Much respect to dumbdumb and his points, but I would like to offer something for consideration.

What if this tourney required a deposit for protests?

Bpate knows he has the rule correct, especially after getting the umpire's take, and maybe he feels the call is a game changer.

Bpate pony's up $50 or $100 (yes, $100, sigh), and then the TD incorrectly backs the umpire. I think it might be a different issue at that point if they don't hand his $100 back to him. Now remove the $100 protest fee; should Bpate still let it go?

In LL and other rec ball leagues, maybe we can let it slide. But in a travel Ball tourney, I am not so sure a manager should let it slide. $350 Entry fee sets a reasonable expectation that this rule is enforced properly.

There is a culture of apology for sub-standard umpiring and it exists at least up to the HS level. If we support those who insist on a higher standard, maybe the market will be willing to pay for it. But then again, the market currently pays $73 for not much better sometimes.

[Rich Ives]

Much respect to dumbdumb and his points, but I would like to offer something for consideration.

What if this tourney required a deposit for protests?

Bpate knows he has the rule correct, especially after getting the umpire's take, and maybe he feels the call is a game changer.

Bpate pony's up $50 or $100 (yes, $100, sigh), and then the TD incorrectly backs the umpire. I think it might be a different issue at that point if they don't hand his $100 back to him. Now remove the $100 protest fee; should Bpate still let it go?

In LL and other rec ball leagues, maybe we can let it slide. But in a travel Ball tourney, I am not so sure a manager should let it slide. $350 Entry fee sets a reasonable expectation that this rule is enforced properly.

There is a culture of apology for sub-standard umpiring and it exists at least up to the HS level. If we support those who insist on a higher standard, maybe the market will be willing to pay for it. But then again, the market currently pays $73 for not much better sometimes.

Just for the record - LL prohibits protest fees. If your league is charging you one, call your DA then regional office if the DA won't help.

[cyclonehokiece]

Much respect to dumbdumb and his points, but I would like to offer something for consideration.

What if this tourney required a deposit for protests?

Bpate knows he has the rule correct, especially after getting the umpire's take, and maybe he feels the call is a game changer.

Bpate pony's up $50 or $100 (yes, $100, sigh), and then the TD incorrectly backs the umpire. I think it might be a different issue at that point if they don't hand his $100 back to him. Now remove the $100 protest fee; should Bpate still let it go?

In LL and other rec ball leagues, maybe we can let it slide. But in a travel Ball tourney, I am not so sure a manager should let it slide. $350 Entry fee sets a reasonable expectation that this rule is enforced properly.

There is a culture of apology for sub-standard umpiring and it exists at least up to the HS level. If we support those who insist on a higher standard, maybe the market will be willing to pay for it. But then again, the market currently pays $73 for not much better sometimes.

In this case, USSSA is $100 cash (USSSA Baseball Rule 15.02). I feel at the least, bpate has a case to maybe (and I mean maybe) get his money back, although this would probably never happen, since TD decision is final according to USSSA 15.01.

[bpate]

$100.00 -- Was ready to put it up but apparently the tournament director doesn't know that rule either. Guess you win some and lose some. :smachhead:

[yawetag]

$100.00 -- Was ready to put it up but apparently the tournament director doesn't know that rule either. Guess you win some and lose some.

It's a safe bet that if I had to pay $100 for a protest, the person making the final decision better have a rule reference.

[NWA_UMP]

I would find out who the UIC is/was for that tourney and pose the question to him. Also get the state director involved if they both get it wrong. I have been on both sides of the game as a coach and as an umpire. I have seen the good and the bad that can occur from situations like this.

[Welpe]

$100.00 -- Was ready to put it up but apparently the tournament director doesn't know that rule either. Guess you win some and lose some.

It's a safe bet that if I had to pay $100 for a protest, the person making the final decision better have a rule reference.

Indeed...otherwise I may be petty enough to take it all the way to small claims court.

[sdix00]

$100.00 -- Was ready to put it up but apparently the tournament director doesn't know that rule either. Guess you win some and lose some.

It's a safe bet that if I had to pay $100 for a protest, the person making the final decision better have a rule reference.

Indeed...otherwise I may be petty enough to take it all the way to small claims court.

Good luck using the rule book as evidence. As a legal document, it is laughable.

[Welpe]

I have a feeling the matter would be resolved before even having to set foot in a court room.

[semper_fi_72]

I disagree with Protest fees.

I also disagree with the TD getting the ruling wrong.

Our local director of USSSA does get feedback from teams after a tournament.

That feedback is passed onto the Assignor as appropriate.

In your case I would suggest you contact the Area Director and let them know what occurred.

The TD should have had a rule book with him.

I have only had one protest and that occurred at Cooperstown Dream Park.

The director after hearing both sides had to go get a rule book and look it up.

When he returned with the book and showed the rule I used was properly applied we resumed play.

The TD in this case made a error that should be addressed.

[Mike Prince]

I'd take the advice here and report it to the Area Director.

Then let it go, you've done all that you can do.

[johnnyg08]

Let it go dude. You have to be able to move on. Think of missing a call as an umpire....if you let it eat at you, it will destroy your career and destroy the fun. Move on, use it as a teachable moment with your kids/players/parents.

The sooner that your players learn that life isn't fair, get used to it, the better off they'll be.

[ukce1861]

The sooner that your players learn that life isn't fair, get used to it, the better off they'll be.

+1,000,000

That's what I always try and tell my son when he complains about umpires (or his coaches...). Sometimes life isn't fair and sometimes people just screw up. Either way, you gotta deal and move on.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Protest fees should pay double. If the coach end up being wrong, he pays $200 total...an extra $100. If he gets it right, he gets his $100 back, plus the umpire pays him $100. If, like in this case, the TD is equally complicit in confirming a wrong ruling, he splits the fee 50/50 with the umpire. That would force umpires, tournament directors, and coaches to study out the situation before the protest is lodged to start with. Get the call right on the field. Some umpire or league/tournament official must know the proper rule application. JMO.

[mstaylor]

I TD many FP softball tournaments. Some are USSSA, some Pony, and some ASA. I don't profess to know softball like I know baseball. I do know more than I ever meant to learn but in case of protest I will confer closely with my UIC and make sure we have rulebook or tournament rule cites to back it up. The best one wasn't a formal protest, but the umpire absolutely kicked a jewelry rule. When the coach came to complain I asked if he protested. He said no, so I told him I had no fix. I would get him the proper ruling but it would be informational only. The funny part of it was he was a judge. He came back the next day saying the rule rule had more holes in it than a little bit. He aid he could write a brief to fix it.