First Play or Second Play

[Bob Bainter]

Good evening all!

I posed this question at the 2012 Oceanside Umpire Training Seminar. This occured in 2009 in the Atlantic League when I worked there. I was behind home plate...and I don't know if I ever will see this occur again.

I asked Jim Evans, Justin Klemm, and James Hoye their opinions on this one...I got two different answers...so let's start a discussion...

SITUATION: Runners on 1st and 2nd, one out.

PLAY: R1 and R2 begin a double steal. B1 hits a sharp one-hopper directly back to the pitcher. 2nd baseman is going to cover the bag for the steal. Pitcher turns and realizes he has no play at 3rd, so he fires the ball towards second base. The shortstop, who was running towards the ball up the middle, realizes that R1 is going to be safe at second base. When the pitcher throws the ball towards second base, the shortstop, now about 10 feet towards the mound in between the pitcher and the second base cutout, cuts the throw off from the pitcher. He immediately throws the ball to first base. At the time of his throw to first, R1 has safely slid into second base. What do you have?

Good luck on this one...I'll reveal the "correct" (if that's possible) call soon.

[Guest]

Holy namedropping.

If you judge the throw to second was made in an attempt to retire R1, that is Play 1 (J/R "Play" - throw to another fielder in a try to put out a runner) making the throw to 1B Play 2. The actions of the shortstop do not change the purpose of the throw. It's nothing more than a smart defensive play in an effort to cut down the time before he is able to make a throw to 1B. I don't believe F6 cutting off the ball qualifies under the criteria for interruption of a throw.

If you judge the throw to second was not an attempt to retire R1, then you are probably playing MLB The Show 12 and accidentally hit the wrong button on your controller because I cannot imagine a real situation where F1 would throw to 2B with R1 advancing and it would not be considered a play (unless he is down and out and flipping to F6 to allow a more timely throw to 1B, like you see outfielders do sometimes). In that case, "Cowboy" Joe Watson, Earl Hendricks or the one who is a brain surgeon in the off-season would rule the throw to 1B to be Play 1.

[carolinablue]

I assume the ball went OOP on the throw to 1st based on the thread title. The throw towards second was play 1. Even though it was cut-off it still was an attempted play. R1 and R2 score and BR goes to 2B provided he had not already attained 1st prior to the throw.

[Umpire in Chief]

I'm in...

I agree that the intent of the pitcher was to make a play on R1, therefore we have the initial play. The play was unsuccessful and the reason doesn't really matter. Just the same if R1 beat the throw.

F6 to F3 is a second play. So if the ball goes OOP we have 2 bases from TOT.

[Thunderheads]

WHAO WHAO WHAO .......

I don't have anything!!! Who cares about F1, ...what's the call at first?? Am I missing something?

[24sdad]

I'm in...

I agree that the intent of the pitcher was to make a play on R1, therefore we have the initial play. The play was unsuccessful and the reason doesn't really matter. Just the same if R1 beat the throw.

F6 to F3 is a second play. So if the ball goes OOP we have 2 bases from TOT.

I agree...ruling and reason for it (if of course the reason for asking is the throw to first went OOP).

[Thunderheads]

Guys ..everyone is acting as if the ball is thrown out of play or something .........re-read the OP ...there's nothing there ..........

[Mike Prince]

Play to F3 is the 2nd play, the throw by the pitcher is an attempted play on R1. Score 2 runs if the throw to F3 goes OOP.

[noumpere]

Guys ..everyone is acting as if the ball is thrown out of play or something .........re-read the OP ...there's nothing there ..........

But the title of the thread is first play or second play so just answer that but I agree it could of been clearer.

For the record I will go with this is the second play as well and treat it just as if the SS was off the base which he was just by a lot. lol.

[UmpJM]

Throw to 1B is a "second play by an infielder". I concur with ump_24's explanation.

Thunder, what you are missing is the whole point of the question - the factors that determine whether or not a throw is a "first play by an infielder".

JM

[Thunderheads]

Throw to 1B is a "second play by an infielder". I concur with ump_24's explanation.

Thunder, what you are missing is the whole point of the question - the factors that determine whether or not a throw is a "first play by an infielder".

JM

I guess so

[sdix00]

Yeah, interested to learn which of those three names believes the throw OOP is the first play, and why.

[johnnyg08]

Yeah, interested to learn which of those three names believes the throw OOP is the first play, and why.

I'm the most interested in that as well.

[Bob Bainter]

Oops...the ball was thrown out of play...my apologies...

[Bob Bainter]

Holy crap! I just got accused by a 21 year old kid of name dropping! LMAO! It's only name dropping when they AREN'T friends of yours! LOL

JK!

Bob

[carolinablue]

Sorry if I caused confusion with my post by assuming the ball went OOP but the question only made sense if it did. Else all you would have was a play at 1B.

[Bob Bainter]

Here's something else to ponder on this play:

How it was handled...R2 scored, R1 placed at 3rd...B1 placed at second...now was that correct...well...the manager of the offensive team, the late Gary Carter, as my partner was about to award the runner, yelled, "He (R1) gets third, right?".

Sure! Situation solved...no argument, no protest, no problem...sometimes it's about the situation and all that is involved, and not the rule :)

[mstaylor]

I have it as second play but the award is going to be the same because of runner position. Equate it to BI, throws go to second with a BI. However, the SS cuts it off and throws back home for R3. We are all taught since the initial play didn't result in an out, kill it and call the batter out.

The OP is not that different, the F1 is attempting to make an out and the SS did something different. I am voting Jim and Justin said second play and James Hoye said one.

[UMP45]

I consider it as 1st play as the throw was not a legitimate attempt to make an out. It was cut off by SS.

[johnnyg08]

Well, it sure seems like we had better define a play. Let's start w/ Evans, since that's what I have within an arm's reach:

Evans defines a play as follows: Taken from Maximizing the Two Umpire System

"G-25: For umpiring purposes, the criteria for defining a play are the imminent status of the ball and runner. When it appears that a thrown ball and an advancing runner are going into the same base at approximately the same time, a play is imminent. On many occasions, you may have the runner advancing to a base but the ball is being thrown somewhere else. Or, you may have a ball thrown to a base but no runner advancing to that base. A play does not exist in either of these two cases.

When an umpire identifies both a thrown ball and a runner going into the same base, a play is about to occur and he must move into position to observe that play. Do not chase the ball into a base when no play is imminent. In the two-umpire system, you must favor staying closer to the runner. When multiple runners are involved, it is critical that you read the situation carefully and remain in a neutral position until a play actually develops before committing distance to that ensuing play."

[UmpJM]

Michael,

I have it as second play but the award is going to be the same because of runner position. ...

Gotta disagree. If it's a first play, it's a TOP award and the R1 is going to be awarded 3B. However, since, as presented, the R1 had already reached 2B at the time of the errant throw, if it's a second play the R1 will be awarded home.

Ump45,

I consider it as 1st play as the throw was not a legitimate attempt to make an out. It was cut off by SS.

What the SS did is not relevant to the question. If the pitcher intended to make a throw to F4 to retire the R1 going into 2B, it's a (first) "play".

johnny,

Agree that it's important to consider the definition of a "play", but the one you cite pertains to umpire mechanics, NOT the interpretation of "first play" for purposes of determining the starting point for base awards. For that, we need the following from the MLBUM:

5.1 PLAY OR ATTEMPTED PLAY

The following interpretation of "play or attempted play" applies to both awarding of bases

(Official Baseball Rule 7.05(g)) and appeal plays (Official Baseball Rule 7.10):

A play or attempted play is interpreted as a legitimate effort by a defensive player who has

possession of the ball to actually retire a runner. This may include an actual attempt to tag a

runner, a fielder running toward a base with the ball in an attempt to force or tag a runner, or

actually throwing to another defensive player in an attempt to retire a runner. (The fact that the

runner is not out is not relevant.) A fake or a feint to throw shall not be deemed a play or an

attempted play.

Since, as presented, the pitcher WAS in fact trying to retire the runner, his attempt - though ultimately unsuccessful - is the "first play".

JM

[SanDiegoSteve]

In that case, "Cowboy" Joe Watson, Earl Hendricks or the one who is a brain surgeon in the off-season would rule the throw to 1B to be Play 1.

Excuse me, who?

[johnnyg08]

While the MLBUM more specifically defines a play, the first paragraph of my post does tell an umpire how to umpire "a play." Your post gives us the rest of the information.

Read Evans' first paragraph that I typed. If I interpret what he's writing there, he wouldn't have F1's throw as a play since the runner and base were not imminent.

I'm trying to learn here so correct me if I read that wrong.

[Bob Bainter]

I have it as second play but the award is going to be the same because of runner position. Equate it to BI, throws go to second with a BI. However, the SS cuts it off and throws back home for <acronym title='Base runner at 3B '>R3</acronym>. We are all taught since the initial play didn't result in an out, kill it and call the batter out.

The <acronym title='Original post '>OP</acronym> is not that different, the <acronym title='Pitcher'>F1</acronym> is attempting to make an out and the SS did something different. I am voting Jim and Justin said second play and James Hoye said one.

Your vote is appreciated, but would be incorrect. :)

[Haid D' Salaami]

well in 1 sense it doesn't matter if it was the 1st or 2nd throw... if the batter and all runners advance 1 base safely, then it is a 2 base award from the time of the throw,.