Poll: U3K Mechanics

[grayhawk]

Curious to know how folks feel about using a verbal in a U3K situation.

[grayhawk]

For those that vote, please reply with your reasoning for your choice. I have heard both sides of the debate and would like to hear your thoughts.

[mstaylor]

I show the strike, make a safe call with my arms and say no catch. I do this because many times neither the batter or catcher can see what I have called.

[JaxRolo]

I misread the OP and thought he was talking about the Base Umpire so I changed my vote.

[johnnyg08]

I no longer verbalize anything. The year I did use verbal, I had two B/R stop half way between home and 1B because they heard "catch" and not the "no" part. Two coaches also came out asking why I killed the play.

I learned from that, no longer verbalize, never had a problem since. That was 4 years ago. YMMV, but I will never verbalize again.

[Haid D' Salaami]

you guys need to make this easy.. way to many signals... just say "no catch"... then point with your right arm out toward the foul line... very easy this way. it is too many signals in a 3 sec span....signal the strike, safe mechanic, then say "no, catch" and then if the Br is tagged that is another signal... way too much.

[mstaylor]

Why are you pointing to first? If you want to not signal the strike, fine but you need the safe signal. Never ever point them to first in any situation.

[D62 blue]

i say nothing , and give the safe (signal) closed fist . and watch the play develop from there .

marc

[Haid D' Salaami]

Why are you pointing to first? If you want to not signal the strike, fine but you need the safe signal. Never ever point them to first in any situation.

your not pointing toward 1st.. but toward like the dugouts.. your right arm is extended ..just like your pointing a ball fair down the LF line..LOL.. and you dont need a safe signal.. that is just to let the defense know.. telling the batter and catcher " NO CATCH" will work just as well... your justing making to many hand signals.... dont you know a kid who went to Jim's and PBUC last year.. can you ask him?

[Haid D' Salaami]

i say nothing , and give the safe (signal) closed fist . and watch the play develop from there .

marc

what is the difference in a closed fist or a open fist.... I cant wait for this answer..LOL

[LMSANS]

I don't verbalize the call. Never did and I honestly can't remember ever being told to.

[Haid D' Salaami]

I don't verbalize the call. Never did and I honestly can't remember ever being told to.

How does the batter know if it is uncaught? is he suppose to look at you and wait for a signal? Just wondering.

[UmpJeff]

I signal the strike, then signal a "safe" call with no verbalization signaling a dropped 3rd strike. I wait for playing action to finish then make my final call of the play..

[LMSANS]

I don't verbalize the call. Never did and I honestly can't remember ever being told to.

How does the batter know if it is uncaught? is he suppose to look at you and wait for a signal? Just wondering.

Maybe because I'm transitioning from football to wrestling, and thus void of baseball thoughts, I can't remember it ever coming up.

I have verbalized that the batter was out on a caught 3rd strike or check swing.

[Haid D' Salaami]

I don't verbalize the call. Never did and I honestly can't remember ever being told to.

How does the batter know if it is uncaught? is he suppose to look at you and wait for a signal? Just wondering.

Maybe because I'm transitioning from football to wrestling, and thus void of baseball thoughts, I can't remember it ever coming up.

I have verbalized that the batter was out on a caught 3rd strike or check swing.

Ok... if the ball is caught, but the BR thinks it's uncaught, you just say "I got an out/catch" right?....

So why would we not say " No catch" if the ball isnt caught?....LOL

[grayhawk]

I figured that this topic would get differing opinions because this is a mechanic that has changed over the years. In the 2005 ALCS, AJ Pierzynski from the White Sox swung and missed for strike three on a low, outside slider. Angels catcher Josh Paul, thinking that he caught the ball cleanly, rolled the ball to the mound figuring that the inning was over. Pierzynski turned briefly towards the dugout and then ran to first as the Angels were running off the field. Pierzynski was replaced by a pinch runner who stole second and scored on a base hit and that was the deciding run in the game. After that fiasco, pro mechanics were changed to provide for a verbal call. If home plate umpire Doug Eddings had given a verbal, "no catch" or something similar, both Pierzynski and Paul would have known his ruling.

I know some folks will take the position that F2 already knows whether or not he caught the ball cleanly. That may be the case but there are times when he DID catch it, but the PU was blocked out and the BU didn't get a good look at it either and the ruling is no catch. In that case, should F2 tag the batter anyway? Absolutely. Is there any harm at all in PU verbally informing BOTH the offense and the defense of his ruling? Here is what Jim Evans teaches in "Maximizing the Two-Umpire System":

"If the catcher does not legally catch the ball, the umpire should signal the strike and then indicate physically and verbally that the ball was not legally

secured. By pointing to the ground and verbally stating, "Ball's on the ground!" or "No catch!", the umpire is giving the batter a fair chance to

advance and, also, informing the catcher that he may have other obligations to fulfill in order to retire the batter."

For those that went to Harry's school, I would be curious to know what he teaches. My vote is definitely to give a verbal because it equally informs both the batter and the catcher of your ruling. In many cases, neither can see us giving our "safe" signal or other nonverbal signal, so adding a simple, "no catch" lets that both know what your ruling is.

[LMSANS]

I don't verbalize the call. Never did and I honestly can't remember ever being told to.

How does the batter know if it is uncaught? is he suppose to look at you and wait for a signal? Just wondering.

Maybe because I'm transitioning from football to wrestling, and thus void of baseball thoughts, I can't remember it ever coming up.

I have verbalized that the batter was out on a caught 3rd strike or check swing.

Ok... if the ball is caught, but the BR thinks it's uncaught, you just say "I got an out/catch" right?....

So why would we not say " No catch" if the ball isnt caught?....LOL

That's about it. "batter's out!" When it's caught, if there is action.

By action, I mean the batter makes a move towards 1B.

[Thunderheads]

Ok... if the ball is caught, but the BR thinks it's uncaught, you just say "I got an out/catch" right?....

So why would we not say " No catch" if the ball isnt caught?....LOL

If a verbalization is used, I personally would avoid using the word "catch" (see Brandon's post above with Jim Evan's exerpts). "No catch, and 'catch' ...in this particular situation is just a recipe for disaster (IMHO).

"No,..ball is on the ground" ... or.... "that hit the ground" ...but using NO CATCH could get sticky if the "no" isn't heard.

So, to respond directly to the bold above ... the same reason you don't verbalize "fair" ........ :2cents:

[Haid D' Salaami]

Ok... if the ball is caught, but the BR thinks it's uncaught, you just say "I got an out/catch" right?....

So why would we not say " No catch" if the ball isnt caught?....LOL

If a verbalization is used, I personally would avoid using the word "catch" (see Brandon's post above with Jim Evan's exerpts). "No catch, and 'catch' ...in this particular situation is just a recipe for disaster (IMHO).

"No,..ball is on the ground" ... or.... "that hit the ground" ...but using NO CATCH could get sticky if the "no" isn't heard.

So, to respond directly to the bold above ... the same reason you don't verbalize "fair" ........

Apples and oranges my friend..LOL

2 totally different scenarios.. I say "No catch" and " he out" on a catch...LOL ok..what do you say it the ball is a line drive to the OF and the OFer tries to make a great catch but it just barely skips in his glove? Do you say " balls on the ground" or "NO CATCH"..

[Thunderheads]

Ok... if the ball is caught, but the BR thinks it's uncaught, you just say "I got an out/catch" right?....

So why would we not say " No catch" if the ball isnt caught?....LOL

If a verbalization is used, I personally would avoid using the word "catch" (see Brandon's post above with Jim Evan's exerpts). "No catch, and 'catch' ...in this particular situation is just a recipe for disaster (IMHO).

"No,..ball is on the ground" ... or.... "that hit the ground" ...but using NO CATCH could get sticky if the "no" isn't heard.

So, to respond directly to the bold above ... the same reason you don't verbalize "fair" ........

Apples and oranges my friend..LOL

2 totally different scenarios.. I say "No catch" and " he out" on a catch...LOL ok..what do you say it the ball is a line drive to the OF and the OFer tries to make a great catch but it just barely skips in his glove? Do you say " balls on the ground" or "NO CATCH"..

Well, like you said, apples and oranges. See my reply above, emphasizing "in this scenario" .... on your sitch above, this is very different, ..you've got an umpire making a call on an obvious play in the OF ....your verbal along w/ the safe sign is CLEARLY VISIBLE where the umpire is making the call.

I understand where you're going, but it's a different scenario

[UmpTTS43]

Most D3K happen when the batter fully swings or checks his swing. On rare occation you have the called strike that F2 just drops. If it's a called strike, signal and vocalize the third strike, then "no catch" with safe mechanic. With a check swing senario, if you have batter going, point with appropriate hand, "yes he went" or "yes" then safe mechanic with "no catch". If you don't have him going, it is probably in your best interest to go to your partner before anyone asks. If your partner has him going then signal/vocalize third strike, give the safe mechanic with "no catch". If the batter makes a full swing, all you need to do is give the safe mechanic with "no catch".

This is what is being taught at school and at the top college clinics: signal 3rd strike if needed, use the safe mechanic with palms open facing down, and vocalize "no catch".

Mechanics have changed and are tweeked over the years. Above is the currently recognized mechanic in this situation.

I have heard some say that players and coaches misunderstood what was said. A} not your problem B} if umpires would adopt the same current accepted mechanics, coaches and players would know what the call is C} not your problem

[Kevin Finnerty]

I agree with Thunder that the outfielder comparison is not cogent. Everybody in the yard can see the umpire's outstretched arms on that one. The verbal is not only unnecessary, it goes unheard by many.

The uncaught third strike requires a verbal, because two of the three participants in that play do not see the umpire's safe signal (a.k.a. his no-catch signal). No catch is the verbal, because it's not always on the ground. But I say it like, "NO catch." There's usually NO confusion.

[mstaylor]

Evans was quoted, I checked with an Evans grad and he agreed, now we need a Harry grad to tell us what he is teaching.

Sounds like show the strike, show a safe signal and verbalize a no catch or whatever your version is. I say no catch but usually twice.

[Fittske24]

Here is my take on this.....

As umpires, there are times we make verbal and non-verbal calls based on the type of play and or "closeness" of said play. For example, ground ball to the infield, fielder throws out BR by 10 steps, BU gives a "casual" Out mechanic (usually with No Voice) because everyone in the park knows the BR is out. Now take the same play but, the BR is thrown out by half a step. BU gives an “emphatic†out mechanic with a “strong†voice of "out" to let the world know it was close but he has an out.

On D3K or UC3K the same philosophy can be applied here. There are times when you have a D3K and the ball goes all the way to the backstop. In this scenario, there is no need to be screaming "No Catch" because everyone in the park knows where the ball is. Here you signal the strike, and signal the "no catch" with safe mechanic (no Voice). Then there are the times when the ball hits the dirt before going in to the catcher’s mitt, or the catcher blocks the ball in close proximity. These types of players require more than just a simple mechanic. A swinging strike mechanic should be given accompanied with an emphatic call of "no catch" given along with a strong safe mechanic.

For Check Swing D3K….See UmpTTS43 post #21

The players and coaches are required to know the rules. Just like UmpTTS43 said, if they stop playing action because of your call, not your problem.

[Haid D' Salaami]

But all im saying is giving the safe mechanic, and signaling the third strike, then if the catcher touches the BR right away, your given 3 mechanics in about 2.6 sec... way too much... is all im saying..

Now as for what Harry's is teaching...

"No Catch".. and extend your right arm out the side palm open, indicating a no catch... if the ball goes way back to the backstop, no signal is needed..

Harry's is trying to make it simple.. K.I.S.S. Keep it simple stupid..LOL and if you only make the minimum movements you as a Umpire will look better.

PBUC is teaching the same way.