How often do you go out ?

[carolinablue]

I mentioned in the to watch or not to watch thread that I would like to start a discussion about going out as a BU in A position. I'm beginning to think I don't do it enough due to the play about the hit to CF we discussed in the other thread and also when I got the oppurtunity to work a game with a D-1 umpire this summer. He went out alot ( at least 50 % of the fly balls) and although I was on the stick and picked up the runner each time, it was unusual for me to see this so it got me to thinking.

We have some really good umpires in my association and some really bad ones. Probably common anywhere. Usually during the spring/summer season you will work with a variety of guys. We always cover mechanics/rotations during pregame but still if I go out it requires the PU to reconize it and to adjust accordingly. I'm sure everyone at sometime has went out only to find the PU hanging out around the plate watching the ball.

I realize I need to do my job correctly and not worry about what someone else is doing, so I'm trying to learn something here.

How often do you go out ? Is it only on balls you know for sure are trouble or do you go with the " when in doubt, go out " mentality mentioned in the other thread. Do you try to evaluate the ability or experience of your partner to be able to reconize you are out and pick up the runner?

Also, the D-1 guy I worked with would at times stay just on the edge of the grass on some fly balls. I read it as he is out but when we discussed it, he said no. It was a LL JR allstar game and he felt like he could help on the catch and still get the runner from that position. Does anyone do that ? Personally, I didn't like it because I couldn't tell if he was out or not.

[Thunderheads]

Nice topic C-blue!

I'm going to have to lean towards going out when I think there's trouble. That being said, ...I don't go out that much. Maybe I assume too much (trouble vs. not trouble) ....but..... I'd be lucky if I went out (on average) once per game....

[JaxRolo]

I could go several games without going out then I get a game that I may have to go out several times. Back to what someone else said in a different thread. Pause, Read, React.

Now if you are working 3-man I am told that if the ball is hit to your side in the outfield that you should probably go out every time and revert to 2-man. I could be wrong. I have never been to a 3-man clinic. Hopefully soon!

[mstaylor]

I agree that going out is not a problem. Many guys have felt that they are making their PU run too much in full gear. If he is doing his job correctly then he is coming out beside the mound for the catch, if the BU goes out he can basically watch the runner from the same place and then it is a handful of steps to take him to second. I tell my BU's to go out if they want, I had their back. Going out is read by the PU when he sees the BU's back. Say he has a fair/foul down the RF line, it is possible he just turns around and calls the play. However, if the ball drops fair then the PU has the runner. In your case your D1 guy was incorrect that he wasn't out. The last thing you want is for a ball to drop in RF and then both of you take him to second, that makes it a potential double call.

[Umpire in Chief]

Both Jeff and Jax state my feelings.

One area I need to improve on is better judging when to go. My pause, read and react needs some work when determining when to go. I tend to make too many assumptions that the ball is going to be caught or not also I make too many assumptions on the players ability. Tracking the ball is generally not my isue.

All that said I need to go out more but to go out 50% of the time from A is way too much.

[AZump78]

"When in doubt, go out"

If you think you arent going out enough, it might be (probably is) because you are not "reading" long enough. Its very similar to missing pithches due to your timing being quick. Same principle applies. You have longer than you think to read the ball befoe you have to "react", so just slow down. (How many times in umpiring is "slow down" the anwser to what ails you? : )

[NWA_UMP]

I am probably in the group that doesn't go out enough. I only go when I "know" we have a trouble ball or a tight fair/foul. There have been times I stayed in and my plate guy has had to make a tough call or at least tougher than was needed. I will have to rethink my stance on when I go out. That is why the offseason is so important. It gives you the chance to stop and think about situations when you actually have the time to think it thru.

[Fittske24]

One of the biggest problems when judging to go out is some umpires will attempt to read the ball flight as their only indicator of when to go out. This is only part of the determination. In reality it will ultimately be the fielder that will give you a better indication of "trouble ball". It is a natural reaction to want to follow the ball when it leaves the bat. Once the ball is in play the BU should pay attention to the location, trajectory and velocity that the ball leaves the infield. once the ball (In the air of course) leaves the area over the infield, the BU should then (Pause) open up slightly turn with chest toward the ball, (Read) momentarily take his eyes off the ball, and locate the fielder attempting to make a play. Now its decision time, and the umpire has to decide if he sees any of the following reactions of the fielder:

1. Running hard in toward the infield to possibly make a shoe string or diving attempt
2. Outfielder has turned is back to the infield running hard toward the fence our boundary
3. Two or more fielders converging to catch a fly ball
4. The Right fielder is running toward the line, with a possible fair/foul decision

If you have these its now time to (React) go out to render a decision on the trouble ball.

[Thunderheads]

One of the biggest problems when judging to go out is some umpires will attempt to read the ball flight as their only indicator of when to go out. This is only part of the determination. In reality it will ultimately be the fielder that will give you a better indication of "trouble ball". It is a natural reaction to want to follow the ball when it leaves the bat. Once the ball is in play the BU should pay attention to the location, trajectory and velocity that the ball leaves the infield. once the ball (In the air of course) leaves the area over the infield, the BU should then (Pause) open up slightly turn with chest toward the ball, (Read) momentarily take his eyes off the ball, and locate the fielder attempting to make a play. Now its decision time, and the umpire has to decide if he sees any of the following reactions of the fielder:

1. Running hard in toward the infield to possibly make a shoe string or diving attempt
2. Outfielder has turned is back to the infield running hard toward the fence our boundary
3. Two or more fielders converging to catch a fly ball
4. The Right fielder is running toward the line, with a possible fair/foul decision

If you have these its now time to (React) go out to render a decision on the trouble ball.

:clap: :clap:

[UmpTTS43]

Both Jeff and Jax state my feelings.

One area I need to improve on is better judging when to go. My pause, read and react needs some work when determining when to go. I tend to make too many assumptions that the ball is going to be caught or not also I make too many assumptions on the players ability. Tracking the ball is generally not my isue.

All that said I need to go out more but to go out 50% of the time from A is way too much.

As with all aspects of my game, I evaluate myself on balls that were in my coverage area and whether or not I made a correct read and reacted accordingly. There are many conditions that change that will affect my reading capability. Balls carry differently off of wood bats vs. aluminum. I have to make an adjustment when going from spring to summer ball. When BBCOR came out, I had to learn how to read how a ball reacted vs. the aluminum bats. Weather/wind is another factor that plays into my reads. The windier it is, there is a higher chance I will be going out on fly balls.

Current philosophy is leaning towards Reading, Pausing, then Reacting. You should be reading the ball off of the bat. Pausing while you pick up, and read again, your fielders and their reactions. Then making a mental decision and reacting.

When I instruct/advise other officials concerning this topic, I find that one of the main problems that lead to incorrect reads is when the umpire "ball watches". They continue to track the flight of the ball rather than taking an initial read of the ball then picking up the fielder. Your fielder, in most situations, will/should give you your keys as to whether or not you need to go out. We are instructed to go out when there is a possible fair/foul situation. We should be able to read that off of the bat. Usually no need to pick up the fielder before reacting. When there is a possible home run. Our initial read off of the bat will say either hard hit fly or smoked line drive w/ height. Our fielder will key us by going towards the wall by drifting/running depending on how the ball was hit. When mulitple fielders are converging. Our initial read is usually a fly ball hit towards the gap or a "Texas Leaguer", a pop-up blooper where a middle infielder goes back and the outfielders come in. Once we have our read, the fielders again will give us our keys. When there is a possible catch below the waist/diving catch. The inital read is usually a line drive or a fly ball away from coverage. Our fielder will key us by usually going on a dead run towards the ball.

I have found that by getting a solid read on ball off of the bat I have been able to determine the probability of it being trouble or not and being able react accordingly. The higher the ball is hit, the probability of it being routine goes up, weather aside. Conversly, a hard hit line drive has a higher probability of it being a trouble ball. That being said, this is why we need to pause and read the outfielders. A high fly ball could make the fielder drift to the wall making it a possible home run. A hard hit line drive could be straight at the outfielder making it routine. If an outfielder goes on a dead run with the ball in the air, probably a good idea to go out unless you know the ball is in the gap for a standup double.

Another tip that I tell others, and constantly remind myself of, is to know where your outfielders are at all times. I am constantly picking up the starting positions of my outfielders, at the least when situations change. Definately when a new batter is up. Being engaged in the game and knowing what's going is vital in all aspects of officiating. Is there a shift on? Are they playing a no doubles defense? Are they playing in for a throw out at home? If I see skip or an infielder talk to or instruct the outfield, I pick up my outfielders immediately.

Without droning on any further, I can tell you that learning to correctly read balls to the outfield is a constant process that can be aided by theory but only derived through experience. Think strike zone. How many pitches did it take for you to feel comforable? competant? consistent? We get far fewer trouble balls so our evolution naturally will take longer.

Every game with conditions are different. The number of times you go out per game is not as important as whether or not you needed to go out for that at bat.

[Fittske24]

Both Jeff and Jax state my feelings.

One area I need to improve on is better judging when to go. My pause, read and react needs some work when determining when to go. I tend to make too many assumptions that the ball is going to be caught or not also I make too many assumptions on the players ability. Tracking the ball is generally not my isue.

All that said I need to go out more but to go out 50% of the time from A is way too much.

As with all aspects of my game, I evaluate myself on balls that were in my coverage area and whether or not I made a correct read and reacted accordingly. There are many conditions that change that will affect my reading capability. Balls carry differently off of wood bats vs. aluminum. I have to make an adjustment when going from spring to summer ball. When BBCOR came out, I had to learn how to read how a ball reacted vs. the aluminum bats. Weather/wind is another factor that plays into my reads. The windier it is, there is a higher chance I will be going out on fly balls.

Current philosophy is leaning towards Reading, Pausing, then Reacting. You should be reading the ball off of the bat. Pausing while you pick up, and read again, your fielders and their reactions. Then making a mental decision and reacting.

When I instruct/advise other officials concerning this topic, I find that one of the main problems that lead to incorrect reads is when the umpire "ball watches". They continue to track the flight of the ball rather than taking an initial read of the ball then picking up the fielder. Your fielder, in most situations, will/should give you your keys as to whether or not you need to go out. We are instructed to go out when there is a possible fair/foul situation. We should be able to read that off of the bat. Usually no need to pick up the fielder before reacting. When there is a possible home run. Our initial read off of the bat will say either hard hit fly or smoked line drive w/ height. Our fielder will key us by going towards the wall by drifting/running depending on how the ball was hit. When mulitple fielders are converging. Our initial read is usually a fly ball hit towards the gap or a "Texas Leaguer", a pop-up blooper where a middle infielder goes back and the outfielders come in. Once we have our read, the fielders again will give us our keys. When there is a possible catch below the waist/diving catch. The inital read is usually a line drive or a fly ball away from coverage. Our fielder will key us by usually going on a dead run towards the ball.

I have found that by getting a solid read on ball off of the bat I have been able to determine the probability of it being trouble or not and being able react accordingly. The higher the ball is hit, the probability of it being routine goes up, weather aside. Conversly, a hard hit line drive has a higher probability of it being a trouble ball. That being said, this is why we need to pause and read the outfielders. A high fly ball could make the fielder drift to the wall making it a possible home run. A hard hit line drive could be straight at the outfielder making it routine. If an outfielder goes on a dead run with the ball in the air, probably a good idea to go out unless you know the ball is in the gap for a standup double.

Another tip that I tell others, and constantly remind myself of, is to know where your outfielders are at all times. I am constantly picking up the starting positions of my outfielders, at the least when situations change. Definately when a new batter is up. Being engaged in the game and knowing what's going is vital in all aspects of officiating. Is there a shift on? Are they playing a no doubles defense? Are they playing in for a throw out at home? If I see skip or an infielder talk to or instruct the outfield, I pick up my outfielders immediately.

Without droning on any further, I can tell you that learning to correctly read balls to the outfield is a constant process that can be aided by theory but only derived through experience. Think strike zone. How many pitches did it take for you to feel comforable? competant? consistent? We get far fewer trouble balls so our evolution naturally will take longer.

Every game with conditions are different. The number of times you go out per game is not as important as whether or not you needed to go out for that at bat.

Excellent Post!

[UmpTTS43]

Both Jeff and Jax state my feelings.

One area I need to improve on is better judging when to go. My pause, read and react needs some work when determining when to go. I tend to make too many assumptions that the ball is going to be caught or not also I make too many assumptions on the players ability. Tracking the ball is generally not my isue.

All that said I need to go out more but to go out 50% of the time from A is way too much.

As with all aspects of my game, I evaluate myself on balls that were in my coverage area and whether or not I made a correct read and reacted accordingly. There are many conditions that change that will affect my reading capability. Balls carry differently off of wood bats vs. aluminum. I have to make an adjustment when going from spring to summer ball. When BBCOR came out, I had to learn how to read how a ball reacted vs. the aluminum bats. Weather/wind is another factor that plays into my reads. The windier it is, there is a higher chance I will be going out on fly balls.

Current philosophy is leaning towards Reading, Pausing, then Reacting. You should be reading the ball off of the bat. Pausing while you pick up, and read again, your fielders and their reactions. Then making a mental decision and reacting.

When I instruct/advise other officials concerning this topic, I find that one of the main problems that lead to incorrect reads is when the umpire "ball watches". They continue to track the flight of the ball rather than taking an initial read of the ball then picking up the fielder. Your fielder, in most situations, will/should give you your keys as to whether or not you need to go out. We are instructed to go out when there is a possible fair/foul situation. We should be able to read that off of the bat. Usually no need to pick up the fielder before reacting. When there is a possible home run. Our initial read off of the bat will say either hard hit fly or smoked line drive w/ height. Our fielder will key us by going towards the wall by drifting/running depending on how the ball was hit. When mulitple fielders are converging. Our initial read is usually a fly ball hit towards the gap or a "Texas Leaguer", a pop-up blooper where a middle infielder goes back and the outfielders come in. Once we have our read, the fielders again will give us our keys. When there is a possible catch below the waist/diving catch. The inital read is usually a line drive or a fly ball away from coverage. Our fielder will key us by usually going on a dead run towards the ball.

I have found that by getting a solid read on ball off of the bat I have been able to determine the probability of it being trouble or not and being able react accordingly. The higher the ball is hit, the probability of it being routine goes up, weather aside. Conversly, a hard hit line drive has a higher probability of it being a trouble ball. That being said, this is why we need to pause and read the outfielders. A high fly ball could make the fielder drift to the wall making it a possible home run. A hard hit line drive could be straight at the outfielder making it routine. If an outfielder goes on a dead run with the ball in the air, probably a good idea to go out unless you know the ball is in the gap for a standup double.

Another tip that I tell others, and constantly remind myself of, is to know where your outfielders are at all times. I am constantly picking up the starting positions of my outfielders, at the least when situations change. Definately when a new batter is up. Being engaged in the game and knowing what's going is vital in all aspects of officiating. Is there a shift on? Are they playing a no doubles defense? Are they playing in for a throw out at home? If I see skip or an infielder talk to or instruct the outfield, I pick up my outfielders immediately.

Without droning on any further, I can tell you that learning to correctly read balls to the outfield is a constant process that can be aided by theory but only derived through experience. Think strike zone. How many pitches did it take for you to feel comforable? competant? consistent? We get far fewer trouble balls so our evolution naturally will take longer.

Every game with conditions are different. The number of times you go out per game is not as important as whether or not you needed to go out for that at bat.

Excellent Post!

You too. Must have snuck it in when I was typing my rant. Thanks

[SAB_UIC_TX]

This is an important conversation pre-game with your partner. Use the definition of trouble, take the read step, read the fielder and react according to the fielders reaction to the ball. When I'm on the plate, I would much rather pick that runner up going to second than have a missed or bad call on catch/no-catch or fair foul on a trouble ball.

[Haid D' Salaami]

I mentioned in the to watch or not to watch thread that I would like to start a discussion about going out as a BU in A position. I'm beginning to think I don't do it enough due to the play about the hit to CF we discussed in the other thread and also when I got the oppurtunity to work a game with a D-1 umpire this summer. He went out alot ( at least 50 % of the fly balls) and although I was on the stick and picked up the runner each time, it was unusual for me to see this so it got me to thinking.

We have some really good umpires in my association and some really bad ones. Probably common anywhere. Usually during the spring/summer season you will work with a variety of guys. We always cover mechanics/rotations during pregame but still if I go out it requires the PU to reconize it and to adjust accordingly. I'm sure everyone at sometime has went out only to find the PU hanging out around the plate watching the ball.

I realize I need to do my job correctly and not worry about what someone else is doing, so I'm trying to learn something here.

How often do you go out ? Is it only on balls you know for sure are trouble or do you go with the " when in doubt, go out " mentality mentioned in the other thread. Do you try to evaluate the ability or experience of your partner to be able to reconize you are out and pick up the runner?

Also, the D-1 guy I worked with would at times stay just on the edge of the grass on some fly balls. I read it as he is out but when we discussed it, he said no. It was a LL JR allstar game and he felt like he could help on the catch and still get the runner from that position. Does anyone do that ? Personally, I didn't like it because I couldn't tell if he was out or not.

Not sure who your DI guy is..but if you turn your back to the infield, your out....I dont really care what he is trying to sell you, but.. there is no ocean front property in Arizona..lol

[Umpire in Chief]

Also, the D-1 guy I worked with would at times stay just on the edge of the grass on some fly balls. I read it as he is out but when we discussed it, he said no. It was a LL JR allstar game and he felt like he could help on the catch and still get the runner from that position. Does anyone do that ? Personally, I didn't like it because I couldn't tell if he was out or not.

I have seen this too from "more experienced" guys too. I've just thought of it as a older mechanic from a by-gone era.

if you turn your back to the infield, your out...

Agree if I see your back as far as I'm concerned you're out.

[carolinablue]

Not sure who your DI guy is..but if you turn your back to the infield, your out....I dont really care what he is trying to sell you, but.. there is no ocean front property in Arizona..lol

He really wasn't turning his back. He would try to watch the ball and the runner from the edge of the outfield grass kind of in a sideways position to me. But I saw he didn't pivot so I read it as he was out. I've never seen this mechanic before.

[mstaylor]

It's called rimming and is a very old mechanic that really is just a bad habit. The choices are simple, come in and pivot or go out. Both is not an option.

When I read the topic line the first popped in my mind was I've been married 25 yrs, so almost never.

[UmpJeff]

It's called rimming and is a very old mechanic that really is just a bad habit. The choices are simple, come in and pivot or go out. Both is not an option.

When I read the topic line the first popped in my mind was I've been married 25 yrs, so almost never.

Now that's funny!!

[NWA_UMP]

It's called rimming and is a very old mechanic that really is just a bad habit. The choices are simple, come in and pivot or go out. Both is not an option.

When I read the topic line the first popped in my mind was I've been married 25 yrs, so almost never.

Now that's funny!!

Too bad I understand exactly what you are talking about :notworthy:

[MidAmUmp]

I can't add much more to what Ken and Troy have already said...both very good posts.

I would say this - know where the outfielders are positioned prior to the pitch (pre-pitch positioning). That will help you once the ball is hit. Also, use your instincts to know what direction the ball is going off the bat. Combining these two things will help tremendously. So if you know off the bat that the ball is hit towards right-center and you also know the positioning of you CF & RF you can be a step ahead on your P-R-R.

Also, I would say it's almost Read, Pause, Read, React. Read hit, pause, read your fielder, react to play.

[bigblue89]

Also, I would say it's almost Read, Pause, Read, React. Read hit, pause, read your fielder, react to play.

I think ive heard that before Jason, ALOT!

[catsbackr]

One of the biggest problems when judging to go out is some umpires will attempt to read the ball flight as their only indicator of when to go out. This is only part of the determination. In reality it will ultimately be the fielder that will give you a better indication of "trouble ball". It is a natural reaction to want to follow the ball when it leaves the bat. Once the ball is in play the BU should pay attention to the location, trajectory and velocity that the ball leaves the infield. once the ball (In the air of course) leaves the area over the infield, the BU should then (Pause) open up slightly turn with chest toward the ball, (Read) momentarily take his eyes off the ball, and locate the fielder attempting to make a play. Now its decision time, and the umpire has to decide if he sees any of the following reactions of the fielder:

1. Running hard in toward the infield to possibly make a shoe string or diving attempt
   
2. Outfielder has turned is back to the infield running hard toward the fence our boundary
   
3. Two or more fielders converging to catch a fly ball
   
4. The Right fielder is running toward the line, with a possible fair/foul decision
   

If you have these its now time to (React) go out to render a decision on the trouble ball.

:clap:

I would agree with this, except:

1. Go out if either the center fielder or right fielder is coming in toward you is a good rule of thumb. If the center fielder is coming straight in, your partner probably has a better look.

2. Only go out if center fielder is going toward right field or right fielder is going back. If the center fielder is going back toward left field or straight back with his back to you, don't go out, your plate guy has a better view.

[Haid D' Salaami]

One of the biggest problems when judging to go out is some umpires will attempt to read the ball flight as their only indicator of when to go out. This is only part of the determination. In reality it will ultimately be the fielder that will give you a better indication of "trouble ball". It is a natural reaction to want to follow the ball when it leaves the bat. Once the ball is in play the BU should pay attention to the location, trajectory and velocity that the ball leaves the infield. once the ball (In the air of course) leaves the area over the infield, the BU should then (Pause) open up slightly turn with chest toward the ball, (Read) momentarily take his eyes off the ball, and locate the fielder attempting to make a play. Now its decision time, and the umpire has to decide if he sees any of the following reactions of the fielder:

1. Running hard in toward the infield to possibly make a shoe string or diving attempt
   
2. Outfielder has turned is back to the infield running hard toward the fence our boundary
   
3. Two or more fielders converging to catch a fly ball
   
4. The Right fielder is running toward the line, with a possible fair/foul decision
   

If you have these its now time to (React) go out to render a decision on the trouble ball.

:clap:

I would agree with this, except:

1. Go out if either the center fielder or right fielder is coming in toward you is a good rule of thumb. If the center fielder is coming straight in, your partner probably has a better look.

2. Only go out if center fielder is going toward right field or right fielder is going back. If the center fielder is going back toward left field or straight back with his back to you, don't go out, your plate guy has a better view.

Straight in or straight back belongs to the 1st base Umpire. you think the plate guy who is a country mile away from the BU has a better look on the CF going straight back.. I will disagree.