Actual play NF rules

[BamaBlue]

PLAY: The starting lineup for the home team is as follows:

21 Smith

25 Jones

2 Dillan

32 Young

15 Driver

24 Woods

20 Murray

4 Johnson

31 Weaver

3 Clifford (eligible substitute)

In the bottom of the second inning as the team comes out for defense, the defensive coach notifies the umpire that #3, Clifford, is going into right field for #15 Driver.

In the fourth inning, Clifford leads off and bats unnoticed for Jones and walks. Dillan then hit's a single, moving clifford to 2nd and Dillan 1st. Young grounds out and runners advance to 3rd and 2nd.

Now, Driver comes to bat and fouls one pitch off and the umpire notices that Driver was substituted for by Clifford and Clifford is standing on 3rd base.

Some of these things have no effect on the game but since it happend, I wanted to include them in there.

[JaxRolo]

So what's the question

[BamaBlue]

So what's the question

I don't know. How about, what color are the dugouts, or maybe how tall is the pitcher for the other team.

Sorry, this is a forum for situations and I just thought you might be interested in a situation. Along with the situation maybe an idea of how you would rule on that situation. There are a couple different things you could give your opinion on and you give "So what's the question". There can be more than one question but go ahead and answer all the ones you can see in that situation.

Sorry to be a Smart A$$ but one deserves another.

[noumpere]

I have Driver out as an illegal sub -- reentering it the wrong spot in the order.

Clifford batted out of order, but that was all corrected by the time Yong batted. The nxt better should be Clifford, but he's on base. So, the correct next batter is Woods. When Driver appeared for Woods, he was an illegal sub.

[kristoffae]

I have Driver out as an illegal sub -- reentering it the wrong spot in the order.

Clifford batted out of order, but that was all corrected by the time Yong batted. The nxt better should be Clifford, but he's on base. So, the correct next batter is Woods. When Driver appeared for Woods, he was an illegal sub.

Driver being out as an illegal sub is all I can see. I would add that he is EJ from the game (I think FED says restricted to the bench). And any coach who lets this get as out of hand as this one did deserves to be fired.

[kwiggie]

Holy sh!t, does Wilson make a pocket abacus??? I am gonna need it for this one.

[Don]

Sounds like Clifford batted out of order by batting for Dillan. Once the

next pitch was delivered it legalized the BOO but made Woods the next

batter, but no one complained so now Young is batting out of order. When

Driver steps into the box he is re-entering, which makes Clifford, who is on

base an illegal sub, so he is called out and restricted to dugout.

Defensive coach, who has said nothing yet, may now claim Young was batting out of order since Woods should have batted and since no pitch has been thrown to Driver Young's out is nullified and Woods is called out, and Murray is the next batter. If defensive coach says nothing then Young's out stands and Driver is the batter.

[BamaBlue]

I have Driver out as an illegal sub -- reentering it the wrong spot in the order.

Clifford batted out of order, but that was all corrected by the time Yong batted. The nxt better should be Clifford, but he's on base. So, the correct next batter is Woods. When Driver appeared for Woods, he was an illegal sub.

I'm good with that. Is the out actually applied to woods and the next batter is Murry? Or is he just out and we don't know who to apply it to and the next batter is woods?

[BamaBlue]

Driver being out as an illegal sub is all I can see. I would add that he is EJ from the game (I think FED says restricted to the bench). And any coach who lets this get as out of hand as this one did deserves to be fired.

Who is the next batter?

[BamaBlue]

Holy sh!t, does Wilson make a pocket abacus??? I am gonna need it for this one.

That's what I said. The official was telling me all this while I was driving home and I didn't have anything to write on.

[BamaBlue]

Sounds like Clifford batted out of order by batting for Dillan. Once the

next pitch was delivered it legalized the BOO but made Woods the next

batter, but no one complained so now Young is batting out of order. When

Driver steps into the box he is re-entering, which makes Clifford, who is on

base an illegal sub, so he is called out and restricted to dugout.

Defensive coach, who has said nothing yet, may now claim Young was batting out of order since Woods should have batted and since no pitch has been thrown to Driver Young's out is nullified and Woods is called out, and Murray is the next batter. If defensive coach says nothing then Young's out stands and Driver is the batter.

There is a note that says when batting out of order occurs several times so that the next proper batter is on base, then he remains on base and is not called out. In other words, his spot batting is skipped.

[BrianC14]

Is it possible to even have an illegal substitute with the FED reentry rule?

[yawetag]

Is it possible to even have an illegal substitute with the FED reentry rule?

Yes. A starter is locked in their starting spot. If they re-enter into another spot on the lineup, it's an illegal re-entry.

Also, a substitute that re-enters the game is an illegal re-entry.

[BrianC14]

Yes. A starter is locked in their starting spot. If they re-enter into another spot on the lineup, it's an illegal re-entry.

Also, a substitute that re-enters the game is an illegal re-entry.

Don't have my rule book handy, but I'm doubting that's correct.

A starter doesn't have to come back into the game right where he originally was... at least I'm pretty sure that's not the case...

Now the part about the substitute reentering, I agree with that.

[JamesC]

A started does not have to come back in to their previous defensive position, but a starter most definitely has to come back to their spot in the batting order.

i.e. F3 batting in the 4 hole can leave the game in the 3rd and come back in the 5th as F5 as long as he is still in the 4 hole. However, F3 CANNOT leave the game in the 3rd inning (still batting in the 4 hole) and re-enter in the 5th in the 6 hole in the lineup, regardless which defensive position he comes in for. Only way I can see a player changing positions upon re-entering is if his original substitute is pulled upon his re-entrance. Because if F3 (say #3) were pulled in the 3rd for #8, then in the 5th inning if #3 were to re-enter on defense, he would have to take #8 out because #8 would have assumed #3's position in the batting lineup upon his entrance. Does any of that make sense?

[yawetag]

Don't have my rule book handy, but I'm doubting that's correct.

A starter doesn't have to come back into the game right where he originally was... at least I'm pretty sure that's not the case...

Fundamentals of the re-entry rule.

2-36-3: An illegal substitute is: (B) a player who re-enters the game in the wrong position in the batting order

3-1-3: Any of the starting players may be withdrawn and re-entered once, including a player who was the designated hitter, provided such player occupies the same batting position whenever he is in the lineup.

[JaxRolo]

I don't know. How about, what color are the dugouts, or maybe how tall is the pitcher for the other team.

Sorry, this is a forum for situations and I just thought you might be interested in a situation. Along with the situation maybe an idea of how you would rule on that situation. There are a couple different things you could give your opinion on and you give "So what's the question". There can be more than one question but go ahead and answer all the ones you can see in that situation.

Sorry to be a Smart A$$ but one deserves another.

I was not being a smart a$$

I just didn't know the question. Haven't seen a situation post without a question asked. My apologies

Edited April 14, 2010 by JaxRolo

[mstaylor]

They have the illegal sub rule exactly right, the third type of illegal sub is a starter trying to reenter after being pulled a second time.

[Thunderheads]

I don't know. How about, what color are the dugouts, or maybe how tall is the pitcher for the other team.

Sorry, this is a forum for situations and I just thought you might be interested in a situation. Along with the situation maybe an idea of how you would rule on that situation. There are a couple different things you could give your opinion on and you give "So what's the question". There can be more than one question but go ahead and answer all the ones you can see in that situation.

Sorry to be a Smart A$$ but one deserves another.

Bama, ...for some reason I read Jax's response as an honest one .....it may not have come across that way, but as a 'neutral' party ..... I think he honestly just wanted to know exactly what you're looking for, even though there's a few that could have been answered ..... just my .02:2cents:

Funny sitch though....the abacus comment is great!:shrug:

[noumpere]

I'm good with that. Is the out actually applied to woods and the next batter is Murry? Or is he just out and we don't know who to apply it to and the next batter is woods?

The out is applied to the 5th spot in the order (the spot originally occupied by Woods). So, the next batter is Murray. Clifford and Dillan stay on base.

Note that Woods has been substituted for (albeit illegally). So, Woods can only re-enter if he was a starter and had not yet been out of the game.

[BamaBlue]

The out is applied to the 5th spot in the order (the spot originally occupied by Woods). So, the next batter is Murray. Clifford and Dillan stay on base.

Note that Woods has been substituted for (albeit illegally). So, Woods can only re-enter if he was a starter and had not yet been out of the game.

Thanks, that's what I felt but there were some other umpires that didn't agree. I can't really find anything in the rule book or the case book that backs this up, or their opinion up either.

[BamaBlue]

I was not being a smart a$$

I just didn't know the question. Haven't seen a situation post without a question asked. My apologies

Maybe I jumped the gun. I've seen a lot of forums where people forget what it's for and like to show others up. I usually stay away from them. This one seems to have a lot of good guys that like helping each other. I guess I felt the questions are obvious.

[Blue_in_NA]

First thing's first: What do we do with Driver?

Driver is out and restricted to the dugout under rule 2-36-3 (a). The next batter is Woods.

2-36-3 (a) . . . An illegal substitute is:

a. a player who enters or re-enters the game without eligibility to do so, or..." Rationale: Clifford became legal once a pitch was thrown to Dillan, so Driver did not have eligibility to re-enter the game. Therefore, the only person illegal here is Driver.

Now that our illegal substitute matter is resolved, what do we do with Clifford, since he and Driver share the same place in the batting order?

I'd say we do nothing with him and his advance is legal. His stats are recorded in Jones' spot in the scorebook, and an out is recorded in the #5 slot in the batting order.

PLAY: The starting lineup for the home team is as follows:

21 Smith

25 Jones

2 Dillan

32 Young

15 Driver

24 Woods

20 Murray

4 Johnson

31 Weaver

3 Clifford (eligible substitute)

In the bottom of the second inning as the team comes out for defense, the defensive coach notifies the umpire that #3, Clifford, is going into right field for #15 Driver.

In the fourth inning, Clifford leads off and bats unnoticed for Jones and walks. Dillan then hit's a single, moving clifford to 2nd and Dillan 1st. Young grounds out and runners advance to 3rd and 2nd.

Now, Driver comes to bat and fouls one pitch off and the umpire notices that Driver was substituted for by Clifford and Clifford is standing on 3rd base.

Some of these things have no effect on the game but since it happend, I wanted to include them in there.

[tjthresh]

So Cliffard is legalized once a pitch is delivered to Dillan, but Dillan is now illegal.

BUT...once a pitch is delivered to Young, Dillan is legal and since Young follow him on the card, Young is legal.

Driver re-enters in what would be the correct spot in the batting order, but the batter that belonged in the spot is on 3B. Driver is an illegal sub, is out, and is restricted to the bench.

Woods is now the legal batter and we move on.

Some of you guys have said that Woods is out, and I do not undersatand why.

Edited April 14, 2010 by tjthresh

[Blue_in_NA]

Some of you guys have said that Woods is out, and I do not understand why.

Their rationale is that since Clifford is on base, his spot in the #5 hole is to be "skipped" in the batting order; so technically, Driver entered illegally into the #6 hole for Woods. An out is recorded in the #6 hole, and Murray is the batter.

I don't agree or disagree, I just feel that this is the more complicated solution. My rationale is that if we didn't have an illegal player at all, Clifford's stats go into Jones' spot and we just play on. 10-2-3g at it's finest there. :WTF