Actual play NF rules

[BrianC14]

They have the illegal sub rule exactly right, the third type of illegal sub is a starter trying to reenter after being pulled a second time.

Reentering a second time... ? Have I misread something?

The way I read the OP, Driver attempted to bat... but that's his first reentry into the game.

[Umpire in Chief]

I'm completely lost in this thread I'll wait till it's over and try and pick up the pieces.:WTF

[tjthresh]

Their rationale is that since Clifford is on base, his spot in the #5 hole is to be "skipped" in the batting order; so technically, Driver entered illegally into the #6 hole for Woods. An out is recorded in the #6 hole, and Murray is the batter.

I don't agree or disagree, I just feel that this is the more complicated solution. My rationale is that if we didn't have an illegal player at all, Clifford's stats go into Jones' spot and we just play on. 10-2-3g at it's finest there.

Got it, and makes perfect sence.

[DirtyDawg]

PLAY: The starting lineup for the home team is as follows:

Now, Driver comes to bat and fouls one pitch off and the umpire notices that Driver was substituted for by Clifford and Clifford is standing on 3rd base.

Some of these things have no effect on the game but since it happend, I wanted to include them in there.

But did the coach recognize this?

[BrianC14]

I'm completely lost in this thread I'll wait till it's over and try and pick up the pieces.

I'm with you. Let's go get a beer. :WTF

[Blue_in_NA]

But did the coach recognize this?

No, the umpire did, which is appropriate under rule 3-1-1.

"For discovery of an illegal player (2-36-3) on offense by an umpire or either

team, that player shall be called out and restricted to the bench/dugout for the

duration of the game."

[noumpere]

Some of you guys have said that Woods is out, and I do not undersatand why.

As an umpire, I don't care whether Woods is out, or Driver is out, or "someone else" is out. That's a scoring / record keeping issue. I just know that "the 5th spot" is out and that the "6th spot" is coming to bat.

if we didn't have an illegal player at all,

Ah -- but we DO have an illegal player, so the rest of your arguement is invalid.

[Blue_in_NA]

As an umpire, I don't care whether Woods is out, or Driver is out, or "someone else" is out. That's a scoring / record keeping issue. I just know that "the 5th spot" is out and that the "6th spot" is coming to bat.

Ah -- but we DO have an illegal player, so the rest of your arguement is invalid.

How is my basic argument invalid? I'm not making an argument for or against it, just stating what others were saying to help this other official understand why they would think to skip that batter.

Jeez. :Horse:

[BamaBlue]

21 Smith

25 Jones

2 Dillan

32 Young

15 Driver

24 Woods

20 Murray

4 Johnson

31 Weaver

3 Clifford (eligible substitute)

Clifford batted for Jones. This is batting out of order. Once Dillan took a pitch that made Clifford a legal batter and the next batter should be Woods. When Dillan got on base and Young batted, that made Dillan a legal batter and also made Young the next batter. So everything has worked itself out at this point.

Now it's Clifford's time to bat but he's on third base. Rule 7.1.2 NOTE: When several players bat out of order before discovery so that a player’s time at bat occurs while he is a runner, such player remains on base, but he is NOT out as a batter. So now when Driver comes to bat, he's actually coming to bat for Woods which makes him an illegal substitute. An illegal substitute can be caught by the Offense, Defense or the Umpire. Once you are an Illegal player, you are always an illegal player. A pitch to the illegal player or any batter after that will NOT change his status as an illegal player. So with that being said, the pitch that Driver fouled off really has no bearing since he was an illegal substitute as soon as he stepped in the batters box.

This is where it is noticed. The illegal substitute (Driver because he reentered for Woods and not Clifford) is called out. That out is recorded as an out for Woods and the next batter is Murry who isn't even ready to take a swing because he's at the concession stand getting a drink.

The reason I feel Driver is out and the next batter is Murry, is if I had an illegal substitute as the lead off batter, and it's caught, I'd call that batter out and the next batter would be the batter following him. I don't think I could call the illegal substitute out and then allow the legal lead off batter to bat.

I think a lot of officials confuse the batting out of order rule with the illegal substitute rule by thinking if a pitch is thrown, then the illegal substitute is now legal. That's only with batting out of order.

Does anybody feel different about this? If so, what would you do?

Edited April 15, 2010 by BamaBlue

[JaxRolo]

WOW this is making my head hurt B)

Hopefully it will never happen to me but I k now something similar will

I will just try to handle it as correctly as possible and move on!