Learning experience

[Umpire in Chief]

I had an eval game last week (not posted in my journal yet) my partner was the head of my associations evaluation committee. It was an adult wooden bat league that plays 9 innings. Even though I wanted the plate my partner wanted me on the bases because he'd already evaluated me at the plate once before.

Our game is going smooth no issues home team is winning by 3-4. The visitors get the bases loaded with one out. I'm in C position. ground ball hit right to F6 who steps on second himself then throws over to 1st. F3 catches it on the hop a step or two ahead of the runner. I didn't even give it a big out mechanic. Not a great throw but it did the job.

I'm heading for right field and I hear, "What are you talking about! He was safe!" With the head coach yelling and running to me from his spot in the third base box. I was honestly shocked and it did startle me a bit that he was hot and running at me. It took me a second to figure out what was going on.

Well the coach is in my face adamant that the batter was safe. I let him say his piece then in a quiet tone said, "Gary, it wasn't that close."

To which he replied, "Well it was close enough, it was at least a tie. And a tie goes to the runner."

I didn't reply

He starts to walk a way yelling, "Don't you know a tie goes to the runner!"

I yelled back, "Absolutely!"

He went back to the dugout ranting about I belong back at Bronco and such. I was actually somewhat amused at the conversation and the rant.

Fast forward to the post game with my partner. Well this game didn't have a lot to discuss so the conversation started with a discussion on how I handled the argument. I got a score of between below average and average.

Once the coach started coming at me and yelling, I should have made an attempt to stop him from yelling as soon as he started, but I started to walk toward him and and let him continue.

I never made any attempt to get him to quiet down, where I should have let him know he can talk to me but not yell.

In his overall assessment he mentioned I'm almost too easy going. It shows in my out/safe mechanics, it shows in my movement across the field, and it showed in the argument. He said he'd like to even see me scowl when banging a guy out. (Which my "punch the midget" mechanic wasn't working again that night and admittedly looked bad)

As were continuing my evaluation, the coach comes up to us in the parking lot. Then I find out my partner put the coach up to starting the argument to see how I'd react. Apparently they discussed it between innings sometime earlier but I hadn't given him any ammunition to argue over, so he figured that play was about as close as it was going to get. Also, he told me he knows that ties don't go to the runner but knows umpires hate hearing that. So we had a good little laugh about the situation. It was a good time.

[scobes7]

Bases loaded I would have been back in the B position myself. Imagine that, umpires in bed with managers to get a reaction from a fellow umpire.. ;)

[gixxershane]

Shoulda tossed him for running and yelling at the same time!! " Coach, you know its against the rules for the coach to do two things at once!" (Running and yelling). Rofl

[Umpire in Chief]

Bases loaded I would have been back in the B position myself. Imagine that, umpires in bed with managers to get a reaction from a fellow umpire..

Our association mandates the C in this situation, but that's an entirely different thread...

I didn't mind the collusion and thought it was a good learning experience.

[treedog24]

Did he give you suggestion on how to calm him down because I would love to know that.

[Umpire in Chief]

What he suggested was when I see him coming and yelling give him the stop sign and tell him something along the lines of "If you want to talk then talk."

He suggested if he continues then start turning away from him and tell him, "I'm not going to talk with you if you're going to yell at me." This way if he continues he is A) Following you and yelling at your back. This makes the EJ easier and better looking.

[mstaylor]

Exactly the way I did with a coach arguing a "hands are part of the bat." He was yelling at me and I simply raised both hands and said," Dave, if you want to discuss it fine but if not we are done." The look was priceless. I did have to repeat myself because conprehention has not working for him.

[Balk Hater]

I tell coaches in pre game that I will not tolerate any bulldog loudmouths coming at me. I tell you this almost 90% of the time they never pit bull any of my calls. Please let me know if it is my right to do this before the game.

[mstaylor]

It's certainly your right to do so but I wouldn't suggest it, it sets a bad tone before festivities have even started. I just handle cases as they happen and shut anything down on a case by case basis. I am assuming you are doing the same coaches over and over. If so they will already know that you are going to take care of business so it is less likely to start. I have heard coaches tell players to fly right because I will get rid of them. My ejection rate is very low but my reputation for it isn't.

[Stan W.]

I probably wouldnt advise putting it into the pregame, I am one to have a pretty concise pregame....Yet if you care to do so, I would use language that doesnt set a negative tone and paint yourself into a corner....

I have heard it go something like this...

"last thing coaches....in the event of a play you have a question with, WAIT until the play is over, REQUEST time, and then based on the nature of the play, we can discuss it... and give you the proper ruling..any questions??, NO?...LETS PLAY..."

Its not negative, its not committing that you will discuss EVERY Play, its also giving the lesser informed coach the proper procedure for discussing a call....

Edited June 24, 2009 by Stan W.
spelling

[treedog24]

I probably wouldnt advise putting it into the pregame, I am one to have a pretty concise pregame....Yet if you care to do so, I would use language that doesnt set a negative tone and paint yourself into a corner....

I have heard it go something like this...

"last thing coaches....in the event of a play you have a question with, WAIT until the play is over, REQUEST time, and then based on the nature of the play, we can discuss it... and give you the proper ruling..any questions??, NO?...LETS PLAY..."

Its not negative, its not committing that you will discuss EVERY Play, its also giving the lesser informed coach the proper procedure for discussing a call....

Stan, I like that. I usually tell the coaches that if they have a question to come and talk to me because I will not respond to yelling across the diamond.

[PeteBooth]

The visitors get the bases loaded with one out. I'm in C position. ground ball hit right to F6 who steps on second himself then throws over to 1st. F3 catches it on the hop a step or two ahead of the runner. I didn't even give it a big out mechanic. Not a great throw but it did the job.

Warren not to start another topic (or perhaps we could) but your OP is PRECISELY why both CCA and FED want you to be in the "B" position. It's for the potential "banger at first base", possible swipe tag / pulled foot, and as in your OP a scoop type catch. You are in a much better position in the "B" slot to see those things then in the "C" slot.

You might want to bring this up at your next meeting so see what your association's rational for being in the "C" position are because the mechanic has changed.

Pete Booth

[Umpire in Chief]

Warren not to start another topic (or perhaps we could) but your OP is PRECISELY why both CCA and FED want you to be in the "B" position. It's for the potential "banger at first base", possible swipe tag / pulled foot, and as in your OP a scoop type catch. You are in a much better position in the "B" slot to see those things then in the "C" slot.

You might want to bring this up at your next meeting so see what your association's rational for being in the "C" position are because the mechanic has changed.

Pete Booth

I won't have to bring it up it comes up every year. And every year we remain in C. The reason given is that we need to be positioned for the lead play. Granting the most frequent play will ultimately end up at first, they state we need to be able to cover the ground to get where we need to be. In my case I was able to make it to the B side of the working area.

I'm just along for the ride and am a good little soldier and do as I'm told.

[MCLEOD36]

Warren.

I think it is becoming very common for coaches to try to light you up, when parents or evaluators are around. And as for being in C, I prefer it in this situation and have also seen that preached in FED and CCA for the reason you stated. Now if a guy cant get a good angle on a throw to first, he will be toast in either position. There are times when I have moved to B with RHB, to pick up the checked swing and / or he was a slow runner.

[mstaylor]

In a two man system you need to start in the best position for the most likely play. With bases loaded and less than two outs the most likely infield play will be a DP attempt. The first play can be at any base besides first, the most likely second play, and closest, is going to be at first. Even if the first play goes to third, it is most likely going to be an easy call. There is no reason to be in C to see it. The only possible play that C makes sense is a pick-off attempt or throw behind by the catcher. How often does that really happen? It is a stupid, low percentage play.

This happens way more in a first and third situation and that does require you to go to B. Their logic is flawed and outmoted.

[SNIPERBBB]

Never make any promise, challenge or anything else about how you are going to be calling a game during the pregame, or any other time at the game. Only thing you should be doing in the pregame is introductions, proper equipment, ground rules/dead ball areas, line-ups, special rules to be applied for the tournament or rule changes for the year if the beginning of the tourn/season.

[noumpere]

Warren not to start another topic (or perhaps we could) but your OP is PRECISELY why both CCA and FED want you to be in the "B" position.

Are you sure? I don't have my mechanics manuals here, but I think CCA has BU in C in this instance.

And, that's what I prefer. If you move, you get to the same spot at the same time whether you start in B or in C.

I agree -- if you don't move, then start in B. Or, better yet, stay at home (and I don't mean home plate),

[Ump29]

A few points on this thread:

- C position is standard in Canada (not that this affects you in the US but just giving some more backing to the C position in this situation).

- The baiting should be frowned upon.

- Evaluators should not be involved in the game in order to give a true look at the other umpire. An unofficial evaluation would be ok.

These comments from an Umpire who has 20+ years experience and who is also an evaluator , a supervisor and an assigner.

Just my 2 cents.

[DonInKansas]

So if you get hotheaded and dump him, does your partner step in and say it was just for show, or does he really hit the showers?

[Umpire in Chief]

So if you get hotheaded and dump him, does your partner step in and say it was just for show, or does he really hit the showers?

That would have been funny.

[digo21]

Since when did they change the rule book to say a tie goes to a runner? This is out of the MLB rulebook mind you 7.08(e) He fails to reach the next base before a fielder tags him or the base, after he has been forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner. I hate when coaches yell this, first off I have never had a situation in my head where I stopped and said OMFG its a tie! I have always had some kind of idea of what it was in my head. Secondly the rule book does not say that. Do not give me the whole well in the mlb the umpires....bull crap I have watched games where guys were safe by two steps (literally) and still called out. /end rant :smachhead:

[willv28]

It's just something they have heard TV announcers say. A lot of things do. They assume "if the umpire can't tell he'll give it to the runner". Well, I can always tell and I never just give one away because I couldn't tell.

[bassfam11]

Warren not to start another topic (or perhaps we could) but your OP is PRECISELY why both CCA and FED want you to be in the "B" position. It's for the potential "banger at first base", possible swipe tag / pulled foot, and as in your OP a scoop type catch. You are in a much better position in the "B" slot to see those things then in the "C" slot.

You might want to bring this up at your next meeting so see what your association's rational for being in the "C" position are because the mechanic has changed.

Pete Booth

I am looking at the 2009 CCA manual and it says "C" in all bases loaded situations

[noumpere]

Since when did they change the rule book to say a tie goes to a runner? This is out of the MLB rulebook mind you 7.08(e) He fails to reach the next base before a fielder tags him or the base,

Right. But 6.05(j) has it the opposite, for the BR.