FED - F1 - Set Position

[johnnyg08]

"For the set position, the pitcher shall have the ball in either his gloved hand or his pitching hand. His pitching hand shall be down at his side or behind his back. Before starting his delivery, he shall stand with his entire non-pivot foot in front of a line extending through the front edge of the pitcher's plate and with his entire pivot foot in contact with or directly in front of and parallel to the pitcher's plate. He shall go to the set position without interruption and in one continuous motion. He shall come to a complete and discernible stop (a change of direction is not considered an acceptable stop) with the ball in both hands in front of the body and his glove at or below his chin. Natural preliminary motions such as only one stretch may be made."

Two questions regarding the portion of the rule I put in bold:

1. Entire pivot foot is not in contact or directly in front of & parallel to the pitcher's plate...Do you:  Legal? Fix it? Do nothing? Penalize it? When in Rome? Wait until the other team says something?

 

2. F1 starts w/ entire pivot foot legal by rule. Hands still separated, free foot outside of a line extending through the front edge of the pitcher's plate. As F1 brings his hands together in the stretch, (a) he brings his free foot within the plane of the end of the rubber as he comes to a complete and discernible stop. (b) leaves his free foot outside the plane of the rubber as he comes to a complete and discernible stop.

6.1.3 SITUATION A:

F1 takes the set position with his pivot foot entirely in front of and parallel with the pitcher’s plate. F1’s non-pivot foot is entirely in front of his pivot foot (toward home plate) but is not within the plane of each end of the pitcher’s plate.

RULING: This is legal, since only the pivot foot is required to be entirely in front of the pitcher’s plate, within the plane of each end of the pitcher’s plate, and in contact with it. The non-pivot foot is required to be entirely in front of the front plane of the pitcher’s plate but does not have to be within the plane of each end of the pitcher’s plate.

Do you:  Legal? Fix it? Do nothing? Penalize it? When in Rome? Wait until the other team says something?

Discuss.

 

 

 

[ALStripes17]

I'm not sure I understand the questions in the two scenarios...

There doesn't seem to be anything to fix in situation 2. It's legal for him to be towards 1B or 3B with the free foot... As long as it's in front of the line drawn THROUGH the front edge of the rubber.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[Mike D]

1. Not legal, fix it...see below
2. Sounds legal, foot position refers to starting position before coming set.
Note: If I see a pitcher doing something illegal during his warm-up I will address it with him then (preventive officiating). Next it would be dependant on the level: jv - I'm probably going to do over and dust off the rubber while I remind the pitcher of the regulations. Varsity - they should know better and will call the illegal pitch.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[maven]

1. As with any pitching mis-positioning, I'll fix it if I can, penalize if I must.
2. Nothing to fix: as described, the position is legal. I think you're picturing the imaginary line wrong.

This is an image of the windup, but the dotted red line is the one to which the set position rule refers: the free foot must be in front of that line, and we don't care about the ends of the rubber.

[BobUmp]

Agree with[mention=2941]ALStripes17[/mention] in 2. In 1, if I understand you, in FED, its a balk, so call a balk. He cant have his pivot foot in windup position (like on an angle, straddling the rubber) while his non pivot is in set position (in front of the pivot foot and the rubber).. that is a form of the illegal hybrid position.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G891A using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

[Mike D]

"For the set position, the pitcher shall have the ball in either his gloved hand or his pitching hand. His pitching hand shall be down at his side or behind his back. Before starting his delivery, he shall stand with his entire non-pivot foot in front of a line extending through the front edge of the pitcher's plate and with his entire pivot foot in contact with or directly in front of and parallel to the pitcher's plate. He shall go to the set position without interruption and in one continuous motion. He shall come to a complete and discernible stop (a change of direction is not considered an acceptable stop) with the ball in both hands in front of the body and his glove at or below his chin. Natural preliminary motions such as only one stretch may be made."
Two questions regarding the portion of the rule I put in bold:
1. Entire pivot foot is not in contact or directly in front of & parallel to the pitcher's plate...Do you:  Legal? Fix it? Do nothing? Penalize it? When in Rome? Wait until the other team says something?
 
2. F1 starts w/ entire pivot foot legal by rule. Hands still separated, free foot outside of a line extending through the front edge of the pitcher's plate. As F1 brings his hands together in the stretch, (a) he brings his free foot within the plane of the end of the rubber as he comes to a complete and discernible stop. (b) leaves his free foot outside the plane of the rubber as he comes to a complete and discernible stop.
6.1.3 SITUATION A:
F1 takes the set position with his pivot foot entirely in front of and parallel with the pitcher’s plate. F1’s non-pivot foot is entirely in front of his pivot foot (toward home plate) but is not within the plane of each end of the pitcher’s plate.
RULING: This is legal, since only the pivot foot is required to be entirely in front of the pitcher’s plate, within the plane of each end of the pitcher’s plate, and in contact with it. The non-pivot foot is required to be entirely in front of the front plane of the pitcher’s plate but does not have to be within the plane of each end of the pitcher’s plate.
Do you:  Legal? Fix it? Do nothing? Penalize it? When in Rome? Wait until the other team says something?
Discuss.
 
 
 

http://www.umpirebible.com/index.php/rules-pitching/pitching-positions

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[Gfoley4]

 

This is illegal, even in OBR? When I pitched I did the image on the right pretty much every time, no one ever said anything in high school nor Babe Ruth/American Legion games (OBR)

[noumpere]

19 minutes ago, Gfoley4 said:

 

This is illegal, even in OBR? When I pitched I did the image on the right pretty much every time, no one ever said anything in high school nor Babe Ruth/American Legion games (OBR)

By rule, it's illegal.  In practice, it's ignored -- sometimes depending on how much of the foot is past that red dashed line.  It's ignored because the fields are (generally) poorly maintained at the youth and HS levels, so we don't want F1 pitching out of the hole that's in front of the rubber.  Then, the pitcher gets used to it and wants to pitch that way at the college and above levels, and no one really cares / complains.

[White47]

I think as a whole, to many people are looking for balks. call the obvious ones, and try to warn/correct position errors. To this point I have not seen a pitcher that i couldn't tell if they where in the set or windup position. I'm sure they're are some that can disguise it i just haven't seen any. 

I was at a camp and had a MLB guy tell the group, "that a balk is on of two things (at HS and lower NCAA level),  1) blatantly against the rules or 2) deceiving the runner." He followed that up by saying, "If David Otiz is at first there is next to nothing a pitcher can do to balk, Ortiz isn't going anywhere and everyone knows it." 

This has really changed the way I look at balks. So many people try to over think it. 

 

Side note: I hope FED lines up With NCAA windup rules in the next few years. it much simpler. Takes the feet out of the equation and are only looking at the shoulders, are they squared (or close) to the plate=windup; or to the foul line= set.

[Rich Ives]

10 hours ago, Gfoley4 said:

 

This is illegal, even in OBR? When I pitched I did the image on the right pretty much every time, no one ever said anything in high school nor Babe Ruth/American Legion games (OBR)

 

10 hours ago, Gfoley4 said:

 

This is illegal, even in OBR? When I pitched I did the image on the right pretty much every time, no one ever said anything in high school nor Babe Ruth/American Legion games (OBR)

Legal in OBR. Note that the pivot foot only has to be in contact. Nothing about the whole foot any more. (Used to be but isn't any more)

(2) The Set Position
Set Position shall be indicated by the pitcher when he stands
facing the batter with his pivot foot in contact with, and his
other foot in front of, the pitcher’s plate, holding the ball in
both hands in front of his body and coming to a complete stop.

[Richvee]

11 hours ago, Gfoley4 said:

 

 

Yeah, illegal according to the FED rulebook. I have never seen anyone address this in my games unless they did it discretely and I didn't notice. As BU, I've discretely mentioned it to pitchers when only a heel or toe is in front of the rubber. If you polled varsity coaches, I'd bet less than 10% even know the rule, and of those 10%,less than 1/2 would ever bring it up in a game.

[kylehutson]

11 hours ago, Gfoley4 said:

I've seen it and told coaches what I saw, not the pitcher. I figure it's a coach's job to tell him to change.

[Mike D]

 
This is illegal, even in OBR? When I pitched I did the image on the right pretty much every time, no one ever said anything in high school nor Babe Ruth/American Legion games (OBR)

This one isn't a balk, it's an illegal pitch (ball only charged to the count). The reason this rule is in place is that pitchers will try to gain an advantage against the batter by throwing at an increased angle to the plate. This can be more deceiving to the batter.
But, as mentioned before, this is rarely enforced and usually when the foot is mostly past the end of the rubber. If I see it while the pitcher is warming up I will remind him to keep his whole foot in contact.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[kylehutson]

3 hours ago, Mike D said:

This one isn't a balk, it's an illegal pitch (ball only charged to the count).

And an illegal pitch with a runner on base is a ...?

(Hint: Rule 2-18-1)

[White47]

And an illegal pitch with a runner on base is a ...?
(Hint: Rule 2-18-1)

I know this is the HS feed, so I want spend much time on it, but in OBR and NCAA not all infractions are balks. Not sure off the top of my head if this is one or not, but I think it would still be a balk, so this really is a mute point.
In Fed though all infractions can be considered balks if runners are on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mike D]

And an illegal pitch with a runner on base is a ...?
(Hint: Rule 2-18-1)

Yes, you are correct.
6.1,2,3 penalty

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[ElkOil]

On 5/11/2017 at 11:57 AM, Gfoley4 said:

 

This is illegal, even in OBR? When I pitched I did the image on the right pretty much every time, no one ever said anything in high school nor Babe Ruth/American Legion games (OBR)

Yes, it's illegal. However, I've never called it, especially when the pitcher does it to avoid the ankle-spraining Pit of Despair that is often present front and center of the rubber.

[ALStripes17]

I know this is the HS feed, so I want spend much time on it, but in OBR and NCAA not all infractions are balks. Not sure off the top of my head if this is one or not, but I think it would still be a balk, so this really is a mute point.
In Fed though all infractions can be considered balks if runners are on.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No they're not. See 6-2-1 (a-i), 6-2-2, 6-2-3 ... Hint: 6-2-1 (a-d) should never result in a balk in practice.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[White47]

No they're not. See 6-2-1 (a-i), 6-2-2, 6-2-3 ... Hint: 6-2-1 (a-d) should never result in a balk in practice.

 

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

 

Your right. In my mind I put those in a different category. I was speaking more a positioning and movement things. In OBR there are 7 thing, I think, that are unpenalized infractions, where the umpire just calls time or tells them to fix it. now I've never actually seen in done in the MLB. that what I was talking about. Can't think of what they are off the top of my head though. I try and look them up later.

 

Poor wording on my first post, sorry.

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ALStripes17]

Your right. In my mind I put those in a different category. I was speaking more a positioning and movement things. In OBR there are 7 thing, I think, that are unpenalized infractions, where the umpire just calls time or tells them to fix it. Know I've never actually seen in done in the MLB. that what I was talking about. Can't think of what they are off the top of my head though. I try and look them up later.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No worries. FED follows along a lot of those lines for OBR and NCAA (def not all though!).

Just wanted to clarify for lurkers.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[LRZ]

On May 11, 2017 at 1:21 PM, White47 said:

I was at a camp and had a MLB guy tell the group, "that a balk is on of two things (at HS and lower NCAA level),  1) blatantly against the rules or 2) deceiving the runner." He followed that up by saying, "If David Otiz is at first there is next to nothing a pitcher can do to balk, Ortiz isn't going anywhere and everyone knows it." 

There are many assumptions and principles in pro ball that are simply inapplicable to the youth levels I work.