Let it go or call it?

[Jboval]

I umpire quite a few LL Jr games. My question is this, we have a few pitchers that will switch to the windup when the bases are loaded, or just a runner on third. During their windup, instead of stepping straight back from the rubber, they step at a 20 - 45 degree angle in front of it with their non pivot foot. They are basically stepping backwards, towards the first base or the dugout (for right handed). I think it looks ridiculous but since they do it consistently and every time, obviously without the intention to deceive, I don't call it.

My problem is this, they go to a tournament in post season, and they get it called there. Then they come back and go "man, you suck, you didn't call that on my all year, and now I am all screwed up in the middle of a tourney game!"

What do you guys think?

Edited May 5, 2009 by Jboval

[Mr Umpire]

Hard to imagine the windup you describe. It sounds like the pitcher is stepping off to the side rather than straight back behind the rubber.

I don't know how strict LL is about something like this or if it is in their rules that the pitcher cannot step anywhere but straight back.

I have a problem with calling it b/c the pros step straight off to the side with no movement back. Why should LL Jrs be any different? If LL wants it called, then call it. Do what they are telling you to do since others will be calling it.

That is the best I can tell you. Call it as others are calling it to prepare the teams. But, personally, I think that is the wrong end of the stick and is ticky tacky.

[huntbomb72]

As long as they are not stepping toward the plate it's fine. Same 'triangle' used for making sure lefties don't step toward the plate applies.

[Umpire in Chief]

I'm having trouble picturing it too, I'd have to see it. That said if it isn't something that is screaming out at you I probably wouldn't worry about it.

[Jboval]

Start with F1 standing with both feet on rubber.. steps with left foot at a 45 degree angle from the front of the rubber towards the left, or the first base on deck circle, then turns pivot foot and continues motion. There is absolutely no backward motion, it is actually forward (maybe you could argue a lateral motion), so they technically make two forward motions. All I can say is that the non pivot foot moves forward and away from the rubber.

[treedog24]

Where are the coaches?

In one of the leagues I umpire the younger kids will start in a set position and then take the non-pivot foot and move it backwards toward 1st or 3rd to start winding up. The league has made it a point to teach the coaches and kids that this is not a proper delivery but in games this is allow because the games would take 3 hours otherwise. The league's hope is that by the time they get to age that balks are called it will be corrected.

[BrianC14]

Start with F1 standing with both feet on rubber.. steps with left foot at a 45 degree angle from the front of the rubber towards the left, or the first base on deck circle, then turns pivot foot and continues motion. There is absolutely no backward motion, it is actually forward (maybe you could argue a lateral motion), so they technically make two forward motions. All I can say is that the non pivot foot moves forward and away from the rubber.

Balk.

Call it.

[jjb]

Based on what, Brian?

[Mr Umpire]

Rule 8.01(a) states the pitcher will take 1 step backward, 1 step forward. However, it seems to be a "Don't do that" issue rather than a balk.

I don't see a balk. It is a "Don't do that" at best. What interpretation says it is a balk b/c I cannot find a rule to support calling it a balk in the OBR. Is this a LL rule or something?

I have even seen the pros have their free foot come forward some and show no signs of going back at all.

[batterup]

What you describe is the start of a pitch, so it's a balk.

Once engaged (in the windup), he must step back with the pivot foot before any other movement.

[Mr Umpire]

What you describe is the start of a pitch, so it's a balk.

Once engaged (in the windup), he must step back with the pivot foot before any other movement.

What he describes is the pitcher delivers such pitch. He is not describing a step off (from what I gathered) with the non-pivot foot. He is describing the pitching motion.

There is nothing which warrants a balk in OBR based on this description. The only thing in the OP is the pitcher moves his non pivot foot to the side instead of behind the rubber. Everything else about the delivery is routine to deliver a pitch. MLB does this all the time. Many pitchers step towards 1B with their non pivot foot instead of towards 2B with it. I believe Steve Avery did it with every windup although it was toward 3B. He describes a "Don't do that" under OBR. It is not a balk. You will not find one word which says it is a balk if the pitcher does not step backwards. No manual I have found says it is a balk.

I will accept any manual calling it a balk if those are the rules being played by. Until then, this is a "Don't do that" under OBR. The MLBUM and PBUC do not mention this as a balk at all.

It sounds like the OP is describing the start of pitching motion with the non pivot foot going to the side instead of straight back. It does not sound like a description of disengaging with the non pivot foot.

[LMSANS]

According to the LL book - 8.01(a), it is not allowed, but there is no provision for penalty. "Don't do that". For LL-Jr's I explain it to the coach and tell him to fix the pitcher.

[ShinySideUp]

Same question: call it, or let it go?

12U USSSA (OBr with safety additions)

RHP engages the rubber, then with the ball in his right hand, pushes his glove firmly onto his left hand. Hands come apart, he leans in for the sign, hands come together, and a "normal" pitch follows.

Strictly speaking, his hands came together while he was on the rubber, then came apart. But is that too ticky-tacky to call?

I talked to the coach and the pitcher between innings, and the pitcher couldn't break the habit. I think he did it on every pitch from the set. After I warned him he pitched only from the windup.

[Umpire in Chief]

I'd say it's a HTBT situation. A lot would depend on how he's doing it and has he fully engaged the pitching plate and the whole situation.

I have balked pitchers who engage the pitchers plate with the ball in their glove, then pull it out to bring it to their side or behind their back.

[Jboval]

Same question: call it, or let it go?

12U USSSA (OBr with safety additions)

RHP engages the rubber, then with the ball in his right hand, pushes his glove firmly onto his left hand. Hands come apart, he leans in for the sign, hands come together, and a "normal" pitch follows.

Strictly speaking, his hands came together while he was on the rubber, then came apart. But is that too ticky-tacky to call?

I talked to the coach and the pitcher between innings, and the pitcher couldn't break the habit. I think he did it on every pitch from the set. After I warned him he pitched only from the windup.

had same situation as above during this past evening in JR's LL game. Told Catcher to go out and tell his pitcher to quit doing it. Pitcher complied for one pitch, then went right back to it. Called the balk. End of problem for the rest of the game. Hey, I gave 'em a chance

[Mr Umpire]

Same question: call it, or let it go?

12U USSSA (OBr with safety additions)

RHP engages the rubber, then with the ball in his right hand, pushes his glove firmly onto his left hand. Hands come apart, he leans in for the sign, hands come together, and a "normal" pitch follows.

Strictly speaking, his hands came together while he was on the rubber, then came apart. But is that too ticky-tacky to call?

I talked to the coach and the pitcher between innings, and the pitcher couldn't break the habit. I think he did it on every pitch from the set. After I warned him he pitched only from the windup.

As UIC said, it is a HTBT situation. I know what 8.05(j) says about both hands together then taken apart.

MLBUM 7.5(n) and PBUC 6.5(k) have this:

Prior to assuming a legal pitching position (windup or set position) it is permissible for the pitcher to momentarily adjust the ball in his glove. In order for this to be allowed, the movement must be momentary in nature. If the pitcher has his hands together long enough that, in the judgment of the umpire, it appears that he has actually come to a set position or has actually assumed the wind-up position, then should the pitcher separate his hands, a balk shall be called under Official Rule 8.05(j).

So, it is your judgment if it warrants a balk or not. And, if you think it is, call it. They don't learn if it is not called. Players(kids) keep doing things until there is a penalty. Ask mine. He does it all the time until I take something from him.

Edited May 6, 2009 by Mr Umpire

[batterup]

No balk in the OP sitch. I read the description and though he was describing a step off while changing from the windup to the set.

Thanks Mr Umpire for making me go back and re-read the topic.

[Jboval]

I read the Little League rules a little bit and found that "in the windup position the pitcher is allowed on step backward and one step forward", but alas, there is no stated penalty for not following this rule. I agree that it is a "don't do that", but my question then is this, what do you do when they keep doing it? Seems like I should just let it go and not open that can of worms.

Me - "Pitcher, you have to step straight back from the rubber while in the windup"

"Ok ump, sorry"

-repeats problem step next inning-

-OC starts yelling "Ump, you have to call that a balk, you already warned him!"

"Sorry coach, but it's not a balk, he's just not allowed to do it"

-OC "Well then why did you even bring it up if it has no penalty? That's the dumbest thing I have ever heard!"

"Well, that's what I am now asking myself, and I may just agree with you at this point! lol"

I guess if he does it continually after being told to stop, then the only option is to eject him, and I will be darned if I am going to get into that over it.

[noumpere]

Same question: call it, or let it go?

12U USSSA (OBr with safety additions)

RHP engages the rubber, then with the ball in his right hand, pushes his glove firmly onto his left hand. Hands come apart, he leans in for the sign, hands come together, and a "normal" pitch follows.

Strictly speaking, his hands came together while he was on the rubber, then came apart. But is that too ticky-tacky to call?

It reads to me as if this is all part of "getting comfortable on the rubber" -- that's really when the pitching restrictions start, and I'd allow the move (as I'm envisioning it).

[catoblue]

LL 8.01(a) says pitcher is allowed one step backward and one step forward with the free foot from the windup.

What I see in games is the "one step backward" is most often, not straight back, but somewhere between straiht back and parallel to the pitcher's plate.

As long as they aren't stepping forward twice, I have nothing. If they ARE stepping forward twice, in LL, it's an illegal pitch.

[Tyennie]

I have had the same sitch asked of me, and i was actually going to post the same question. What I have told coaches is:

It is crappy mechanics, but not a balk. Two reasons. (1) Nothing in the book says it is. (2) There isn't anyone on base man! Yes, often times F1 will go to the windup with R3 or R2 & R3. This is not an illegal pitch by definition; there are only 2 illegal pitches - not in contact with the rubber and a quick return pitch (look in section 2)

Between innings quick discussion with this pitcher's coach, and hopefully some bad habits will get fixed before the kid throws again.