"No, he didn't go!"

[dddunn3d]

OBR/no runners, 1-2 count.

Pitch is tracking towards the outside corner and tails away from the batter. Batter makes a check-swing, close enough it could have gone either way, but I ruled ball.

The pitch skips away from F2, B realizes and takes off for 1B (thinking D3K). F2 overthrows into RF, BR ends up on 2B.

The entire time I'm thinking no one heard the call. F2 is sharp and appeals to me to get help. BU had a ball also, so back comes the batter.

Unusual in that normally F2 is looking for a strike call from BU, but not this time.

In any case, I'll endeavor to always add "No, he didn't!" in future similar situations.

[UmpJM]

OBR/no runners, 1-2 count.

Pitch is tracking towards the outside corner and tails away from the batter. Batter makes a check-swing, close enough it could have gone either way, but I ruled ball.

The pitch skips away from F2, B realizes and takes off for 1B (thinking D3K). F2 overthrows into RF, BR ends up on 2B.

The entire time I'm thinking no one heard the call. F2 is sharp and appeals to me to get help. BU had a ball also, so back comes the batter.

Unusual in that normally F2 is looking for a strike call from BU, but not this time.

In any case, I'll endeavor to always add "No, he didn't!" in future similar situations.

dddunn,

While I believe that is an accepted mechanic (i.e., "No, he didn't!"), it is not one I employ save for the rare occasions when I am working solo.

JM

[mazzamouth]

We were taught the "ball, no he didnt go" and if you could have used it in this play, it might have helped... i always use it whether it be in 3 man, or 2 man... it helps.

[Mr Umpire]

I have never liked that mechanic and don't use it. I have expressed my dislike to Wendelstedt (and I'm sure it will go a long way ). But, some view it as trying to be persuading of the call or helping to deny any appeal. I know it doesn't but some view it that way. To me, saying "Ball" is enough. It says exactly what the call is.

But, what would have cleared everything up would be if the PU does a different mechanic. Especially on any borderline one as the OP. Call "Ball" and point to BU asking if he went. Then, it is completely clear once the BU makes his call. After that, there is no question of what to do on the play. This is how I have done it and everything has worked great.

A whole lot clearer than to say "Ball, no he didn't go". Then, have the defense ask your partner and your partner says "Yes, he did". And, if you argue that the BU should agree after PU says "no he didn't go", then you have just proven the "persuading the call" part of others argument.

[NovaScotiaBlue]

OBR/no runners, 1-2 count.

Pitch is tracking towards the outside corner and tails away from the batter. Batter makes a check-swing, close enough it could have gone either way, but I ruled ball.

The pitch skips away from F2, B realizes and takes off for 1B (thinking D3K). F2 overthrows into RF, BR ends up on 2B.

The entire time I'm thinking no one heard the call. F2 is sharp and appeals to me to get help. BU had a ball also, so back comes the batter.

Unusual in that normally F2 is looking for a strike call from BU, but not this time.

In any case, I'll endeavor to always add "No, he didn't!" in future similar situations.

Adding no he didn't is a start...BUT...

The key point with this play is that it proves that BOTH umpires need to be prepared for that unexpected check swing appeal.

As the PU don't wait to hear, "Check that!" from the defence You need to initiate the appeal automatically by pointing at your partner and asking, Did he go!!!.

Also as the BU, don't be in LaLa Land in a situation like this. Be ready

[JaxRolo]

OBR/no runners, 1-2 count.

Pitch is tracking towards the outside corner and tails away from the batter. Batter makes a check-swing, close enough it could have gone either way, but I ruled ball.

The pitch skips away from F2, B realizes and takes off for 1B (thinking D3K). F2 overthrows into RF, BR ends up on 2B.

The entire time I'm thinking no one heard the call. F2 is sharp and appeals to me to get help. BU had a ball also, so back comes the batter.

Unusual in that normally F2 is looking for a strike call from BU, but not this time.

In any case, I'll endeavor to always add "No, he didn't!" in future similar situations.

Adding no he didn't is a start...BUT...

The key point with this play is that it proves that BOTH umpires need to be prepared for that unexpected check swing appeal.

As the PU don't wait to hear, "Check that!" from the defence You need to initiate the appeal automatically by pointing at your partner and asking, Did he go!!!.

Also as the BU, don't be in LaLa Land in a situation like this. Be ready

He said he ruled it a "ball" so why does he need to check it?

[noumpere]

He said he ruled it a "ball" so why does he need to check it?

Because its a potential dropped third strike when the batter can run. Ask without being asked. And at higher levels respond without being asked if you have a swing.

Let everyone know what the final call is so they can play accordingly.

[archangel]

OBR/no runners, 1-2 count.

Pitch is tracking towards the outside corner and tails away from the batter. Batter makes a check-swing, close enough it could have gone either way, but I ruled ball.

The pitch skips away from F2, B realizes and takes off for 1B (thinking D3K). F2 overthrows into RF, BR ends up on 2B.

The entire time I'm thinking no one heard the call.

F2 is sharp and appeals to me to get help. BU had a ball also, so back comes the batter.

Unusual in that normally F2 is looking for a strike call from BU, but not this time.

In any case, I'll endeavor to always add "No, he didn't!" in future similar situations.

F2's not being sharp by asking for the appeal. If he doesnt ask, it stays a "ball" and BR comes back. If BU rules "strike", then BR stays at 2nd as its a D3K....I also agree with the immediate pointing/asking of BU by PU...

[mazzamouth]

I have never liked that mechanic and don't use it. I have expressed my dislike to Wendelstedt (and I'm sure it will go a long way ). But, some view it as trying to be persuading of the call or helping to deny any appeal. I know it doesn't but some view it that way. To me, saying "Ball" is enough. It says exactly what the call is.

But, what would have cleared everything up would be if the PU does a different mechanic. Especially on any borderline one as the OP. Call "Ball" and point to BU asking if he went. Then, it is completely clear once the BU makes his call. After that, there is no question of what to do on the play. This is how I have done it and everything has worked great.

A whole lot clearer than to say "Ball, no he didn't go". Then, have the defense ask your partner and your partner says "Yes, he did". And, if you argue that the BU should agree after PU says "no he didn't go", then you have just proven the "persuading the call" part of others argument.

This is the way it is taught at PBUC as well...

The reason you say he didn't go cause that is the PU judgment, that he didn't make an attempt... so ask the BU he has a completely different view.. there is no agreeing with your partner any more.. you need to call what you see.

[dddunn3d]

Yep, I got that right backwards, didn't I?

[NovaScotiaBlue]

OBR/no runners, 1-2 count.

Pitch is tracking towards the outside corner and tails away from the batter. Batter makes a check-swing, close enough it could have gone either way, but I ruled ball.

The pitch skips away from F2, B realizes and takes off for 1B (thinking D3K). F2 overthrows into RF, BR ends up on 2B.

The entire time I'm thinking no one heard the call. F2 is sharp and appeals to me to get help. BU had a ball also, so back comes the batter.

Unusual in that normally F2 is looking for a strike call from BU, but not this time.

In any case, I'll endeavor to always add "No, he didn't!" in future similar situations.

Adding no he didn't is a start...BUT...

The key point with this play is that it proves that BOTH umpires need to be prepared for that unexpected check swing appeal.

As the PU don't wait to hear, "Check that!" from the defence You need to initiate the appeal automatically by pointing at your partner and asking, Did he go!!!.

Also as the BU, don't be in LaLa Land in a situation like this. Be ready

He said he ruled it a "ball" so why does he need to check it?

Because that is the only call that the defence can appeal

[Fittske24]

He said he ruled it a "ball" so why does he need to check it?

This just means he ruled the pitch as a ball.....not the batters intent to swing. As you saw at southern camp Jax, some umpires can be so focused on calling the pitch that they never see the check swing occur. I agree when you have a possible 3rd strike on a check swing, the umpire should with out hesitation ask his partner, especially when there is a pass ball or dropped 3rd strike involved.

Ken

[TXUmp77]

With 2 strikes is the difference in wether you add no he didnt go or immediately go for appeal. With less than 2 strikes i say ball no he didnt go as i was taught at evans. But with 2 strikes i pop up and say bob did he go with left hand again as taught at evans.

[mazzamouth]

With 2 strikes is the difference in wether you add no he didnt go or immediately go for appeal. With less than 2 strikes i say ball no he didnt go as i was taught at evans. But with 2 strikes i pop up and say bob did he go with left hand again as taught at evans.

with 2 strikes and a chance the batter can become a runner you should go without request from the defense.. usually this will happen in a 3-2 count.. it looks really good when the batter checks and you call a ball, then bust out and ask right away.

[UmpPhil]

I just learned this mechanic at the end of this season and I really like it. I was a catcher in college and there were many times where a quick call like that would have saved me some grief. i.e. we had one situation in which I was under the impression that it was a dropped third strike, and a runner on 3rd with 2 out, I throw the ball to first expecting to get the 3rd out and the umpire in chief is looking at his partner for help in position B, they look at each other and the runner breaks for home. We got the out at home and then only after that play determined that the batter didn't swing. Could have been catastrophic being that it was a one run game. So needless to say, now that I know that there are guys out there using this technique I am going to implement it into my regiment. It's one of those small things that could really help you from getting burned by coaches.

[Kevin Finnerty]

I have never liked that mechanic and don't use it. I have expressed my dislike to Wendelstedt (and I'm sure it will go a long way ). But, some view it as trying to be persuading of the call or helping to deny any appeal. I know it doesn't but some view it that way. To me, saying "Ball" is enough. It says exactly what the call is.

But, what would have cleared everything up would be if the PU does a different mechanic. Especially on any borderline one as the OP. Call "Ball" and point to BU asking if he went. Then, it is completely clear once the BU makes his call. After that, there is no question of what to do on the play. This is how I have done it and everything has worked great.

A whole lot clearer than to say "Ball, no he didn't go". Then, have the defense ask your partner and your partner says "Yes, he did". And, if you argue that the BU should agree after PU says "no he didn't go", then you have just proven the "persuading the call" part of others argument.

This is one of the best posts I've ever read on this site.

[NWA_UMP]

I have used the "no, he didn't go" mechanic before...for the same reason stated earlier in the thread...

After reading I will have to rethink why I have used it in the past. A simple call of ball or strike should be sufficent...

[BigUmp56]

The entire time I'm thinking no one heard the call..........................

I think this is something you might want to work on as well. Every camp or clinic I've ever attended stressed the need to verbalize the call of "ball" loud enough for both benches to hear it. Obviously, you don't need to verbalize the call if the pitch is air mailed to the back stop, but let them know right away on anything else. And I also use the mechanic of "Ball, did he go?" on a potential swing in a D3K situation.

Tim.

[SAB_UIC_TX]

Correct, verbalize "Ball" loud enough that both benches hear this. The mechanic of "Ball, no he didn't go" should be used, but you also have to employ common sense know the count and situation. In this situation I would not use that mechanic, I would call "Ball" and immediately to to my partner to see if he went. This allows the batter the chance to advance on an uncaught third strike if it so ruled a strike. The "Ball, no he didn't go" should be used in more dare I say, routine, situations. This is a perfect example of anticipating all play possibilities, not the outcome and thinking what you're going to do if there is a half swing ball that gets away from F2.

One other point I saw in this thread is, to some people, who feel the BU should agree with the PU's call on half swing. Jim Evans doesn't teach this, Wendlestedt doesn't teach this and PUBUC does not either. Call what you see as you see it. I going to guess that we've all worked with a guy that either pre-game or after you've reversed a call on a half swing has told you that you need to back him up on half swing calls. Umpire the play the way you see it.

[JaxRolo]

If you verbalize "Ball" Why do you need "No,he didn't go" Is in it obvious?

Use One or the other.

I always verbalize "Ball" calls but I don't care who hears me as long as F1, F2, and the batter hear me. I once had a MLB Umpire tell me that if you have to over emphasize a borderline pitch with a Loud Ball call then you probably should have called it a "Strike"

[dumbdumb]

I have never liked that mechanic and don't use it. I have expressed my dislike to Wendelstedt (and I'm sure it will go a long way ). But, some view it as trying to be persuading of the call or helping to deny any appeal. I know it doesn't but some view it that way. To me, saying "Ball" is enough. It says exactly what the call is.

But, what would have cleared everything up would be if the PU does a different mechanic. Especially on any borderline one as the OP. Call "Ball" and point to BU asking if he went. Then, it is completely clear once the BU makes his call. After that, there is no question of what to do on the play. This is how I have done it and everything has worked great.

A whole lot clearer than to say "Ball, no he didn't go". Then, have the defense ask your partner and your partner says "Yes, he did". And, if you argue that the BU should agree after PU says "no he didn't go", then you have just proven the "persuading the call" part of others argument.

You and Mazz are on the same page with your second paragraph and Mazz's third post.

However, in your 3rd paragraph and his first post, regardless of whether you do or do not verbalize your opinion as the plate umpire, if your base umpire says no he didn't go when asked, the thought of "persuading the call" would immediately come to my mind in both situations, knowing that you are both applying a different technique or mechanic for "persuading the call". Not much different than persuading me a pitch is a strike by pointing a strike to the side or coming straight up with the fist like it shows on the umpire school clips.

Either way of working this would not bother me in the least. What does bother me is someone who never calls a check swing strike from the plate and always goes to his partner no matter what, even on some swings when they wrap the bat around their body.

[mstaylor]

Correct, verbalize "Ball" loud enough that both benches hear this. The mechanic of "Ball, no he didn't go" should be used, but you also have to employ common sense know the count and situation. In this situation I would not use that mechanic, I would call "Ball" and immediately to to my partner to see if he went. This allows the batter the chance to advance on an uncaught third strike if it so ruled a strike. The "Ball, no he didn't go" should be used in more dare I say, routine, situations. This is a perfect example of anticipating all play possibilities, not the outcome and thinking what you're going to do if there is a half swing ball that gets away from F2.

One other point I saw in this thread is, to some people, who feel the BU should agree with the PU's call on half swing. Jim Evans doesn't teach this, Wendlestedt doesn't teach this and PUBUC does not either. Call what you see as you see it. I going to guess that we've all worked with a guy that either pre-game or after you've reversed a call on a half swing has told you that you need to back him up on half swing calls. Umpire the play the way you see it.

I advocate using the "No, he didn't go" mechanic but it should not be used on a possible third strike. Announce the ball and then ask your partner for a ruling on the swing. The BU should not automatically agree with the PU, he should give him what he has.

[AZump78]

Funny, the biggest "argument" I ever had with a partner was over this mechanic. He was FURIOUS at me and literally yelled me into my car after the game for using my "fresh out of umpire school" mechanic of "BALL-NO HE DIDNT GO!". He said that I threw him under the bus by using that phrase and then granting a request for appeal (Seriously?!?)

I use the mechanic for this simple reason. Whenever something happens on the field, players, coaches, fans, everyone look to us to "Answer the Question". If there is a potential for the batter offering at the pitch-answer the question. Either "yes he did" or "Ball-No he didn't go" (or just a strike call if the ball was in the zone : ).

By saying nothing about the swing it could be construed as you not even noticing the check swing!

Anyway, its always good to "Answer the Question," wether its a check swing or situations such as: "That's Nothing!" (possible INT or OBR), "Balls In Play" (possible live ball entering DBT) , etc. These little things are very much noticed by your assignors, evaluators, coaches (who DO report to your higher ups on your work) and can very much help you rise to the top of whatever level you are working.

[mstaylor]

My method of handling check swings:

1. Yes he did while pointing at the batter with the appropriate hand.

2. No doubt that he didn't go, Ball, no he didn't.

3. I'm not sure, Ball, then ask my partner.

4. Fairly certain, Ball.

Anytime a coach or catcher asks me to check, I check. Rarely I get overturned when I have said that he didn't go but it happens.

How the hell does your partner think by using the mechanic you are throwing him under the bus. Sounds like an old dog that doesn't care to learn anything else. If the pitch is a strike, just call it a strike and forget the check swing.

[Mr Umpire]

Funny, the biggest "argument" I ever had with a partner was over this mechanic. He was FURIOUS at me and literally yelled me into my car after the game for using my "fresh out of umpire school" mechanic of "BALL-NO HE DIDNT GO!". He said that I threw him under the bus by using that phrase and then granting a request for appeal (Seriously?!?)

I use the mechanic for this simple reason. Whenever something happens on the field, players, coaches, fans, everyone look to us to "Answer the Question". If there is a potential for the batter offering at the pitch-answer the question. Either "yes he did" or "Ball-No he didn't go" (or just a strike call if the ball was in the zone : ).

By saying nothing about the swing it could be construed as you not even noticing the check swing!

Anyway, its always good to "Answer the Question," wether its a check swing or situations such as: "That's Nothing!" (possible INT or OBR), "Balls In Play" (possible live ball entering DBT) , etc. These little things are very much noticed by your assignors, evaluators, coaches (who DO report to your higher ups on your work) and can very much help you rise to the top of whatever level you are working.

Question then. If you say "No, he didn't go", aren't they still asking a question and feel it wasn't answered when they want help from your partner? There is no question until the defense wants an appeal to the BU. Then, it is a question. I have never been questioned about if I saw the bat movement or not. The only question which has ever been asked whether by me saying "Ball" or any partner saying "Ball, no he didn't go" is "Can you get some help?". Same question regardless how it is done.