Fake to 3B; 3rd-to-1st move

[HumblePie]

My understanding is that these maneuvers are still legal in FED, and that there is no rule disallowing them (as opposed to a rule saying they are legal).  Is there a casebook play that enumerates that they are legal?  I've got the 2025 book and cannot find one.

Had a coach from Florida yesterday (tournament was in Georgia) who claims that Florida HS (FHSAA) outlawed these maneuvers ten years ago in following the MLB rule.  I don't believe it.  That would have to be a "By-State-Adoption" vote, which I don't believe exists with this particular rule.

[The Man in Blue]

Don't think there is a case play, but the rule is pretty clear in that it only applies to first base (and home plate).

 

My first thought, which you addressed, was state adoption.  These "off book" state adoptions make tournaments interesting when you have teams traveling from out of state.  Umpires (and tournament directors!) should try to remember that a tournament playing under NFHS does NOT include state adoptions unless specified, even if you are in that state and used to those adoptions.  That would be playing under the state association's rules, not NFHS's.

 

Here is the link to FHSAA's manual.  That adoption is not listed. there.  https://fhsaa.com/documents/2025/1/13//2425_baseball_sport_manual.pdf?id=6116

[HumblePie]

I don't know about off the book state adoptions, but here it is from the horse's mouth in Florida: 

Good morning-
Thank you for contacting the Florida High School Athletic Association. 

FHSAA has not adopted any such rule stated below. 

Robbie Lindeman 
Coordinator of Athletics 
Florida High School Athletic Association
1801 NW 80th Blvd
Gainesville, FL 32606
352.372.9551   Ext. 260

[johnnyg08]

100% it's still LEGAL in NFHS. 

 

[noumpere]

3 hours ago, HumblePie said:

I don't know about off the book state adoptions, but here it is from the horse's mouth in Florida: 

G

Yep.  And the story you got in the game was from the other end of the horse.

[HumblePie]

1 hour ago, johnnyg08 said:

100% it's still LEGAL in NFHS. 

 

That was never in question ...

[mw94]

Had the same BullSH*# from a coach  a few years back here in AZ.  

Spring Break H.S tourney with teams from multiple western states.  

Team from CO. is warming up & we see the catcher wearing a 2 piece  traditional mask & backward skull cap.

Totally illegal in FED.  

Gives us some BS about being ok in CO.

Which I followed up on & it was a lie 

 

[JSam21]

Any time some team from another state tries to say that something is legal in their state... "Fantastic, we aren't playing in your state."

 

[HumblePie]

The guy from Florida that I referenced was far more brazen than claiming it's illegal in Florida to fake the third, he claimed it must be only our County in Georgia that still allows it.

I hate calling people liars, even when I suspect they are liars, because I would rather think they are short on facts and long on misunderstandings.

I think some of these coaches who claim to be varsity coaches, actually are summer ball coaches that may coach two to three times as many games as the varsity coach did, and in most if not all of those tournaments, they are playing by MLB rules, or at least by the MLB balk rule.  Therefore, as they remember it, High School disallows it

[johnnyg08]

1 hour ago, mw94 said:

Had the same BullSH*# from a coach  a few years back here in AZ.  

Spring Break H.S tourney with teams from multiple western states.  

Team from CO. is warming up & we see the catcher wearing a 2 piece  traditional mask & backward skull cap.

Totally illegal in FED.  

Gives us some BS about being ok in CO.

Which I followed up on & it was a lie 

 

Someone sent me a photo of an F2 wearing one in an NFHS game this season. 

The rule is like 25 years old. Older than every player and some of the coaches! 

[HumblePie]

1 minute ago, johnnyg08 said:

Someone sent me a photo of an F2 wearing one in an NFHS game this season. 

The rule is like 25 years old. Older than every player and some of the coaches! 

But it's just so "cool" to wear a two-piece.

[Richvee]

2 hours ago, HumblePie said:

think some of these coaches who claim to be varsity coaches, actually are summer ball coaches that may coach two to three times as many games as the varsity coach did, and in most if not all of those tournaments, they are playing by MLB rules, or at least by the MLB balk rule.  Therefore, as they remember it, High School disallows it

I also think a lot are assistant coaches in high s book, know even less rules than the head coach, and are tired of not being listened to for 3 months. 🤣

[The Man in Blue]

6 hours ago, HumblePie said:

But it's just so "cool" to wear a two-piece.

It is.  And a lot more comfortable.  I'll be honest, I was a catcher when the HSM came into existence.  I tried it, hated it, and would not be a catcher today because of the requirement.  I'm not saying I disagree, I understand the logic of the requirement, I'm just saying I don't like them.

8 hours ago, mw94 said:

Team from CO. is warming up & we see the catcher wearing a 2 piece  traditional mask & backward skull cap.

Totally illegal in FED.  

Gives us some BS about being ok in CO.

Which I followed up on & it was a lie 

While I doubt it, I am going to offer this possible "out" . . . was he referring to scholastic contests in CO or private tournaments in CO that use Fed?  I ask that because most of the private tournaments that I have worked (IL, WI, MS, LA) that use Fed as their base rules, will write in an allowance for the mask/helmet combo.

[mw94]

5 minutes ago, mw94 said:

I only checked about the actual HS scholastic rule.   This was not some private travel ball sponsored tournament in AZ. (USSSA or Triple Crown, Perfect Game ) This was a sanctioned tournament by the  AIA the governing body of HS athletics in  AZ.

 

[DevildogUmp]

On 6/10/2025 at 4:47 PM, johnnyg08 said:

Someone sent me a photo of an F2 wearing one in an NFHS game this season. 

The rule is like 25 years old. Older than every player and some of the coaches! 

I had to go look it up since I don't feel that old and I used a 2-piece through senior year of high school. The requirement for NOCSAE standard for catcher's helmets was passed in 1999 (my graduation year) with an implementation of 2003. Interestingly, the requirement for NOCSAE standard for batting helmets was passed in 1982 (implementation in 1985), so it took 18 years for NHFS to care about catcher's heads. 

[johnnyg08]

42 minutes ago, DevildogUmp said:

I had to go look it up since I don't feel that old and I used a 2-piece through senior year of high school. The requirement for NOCSAE standard for catcher's helmets was passed in 1999 (my graduation year) with an implementation of 2003. Interestingly, the requirement for NOCSAE standard for batting helmets was passed in 1982 (implementation in 1985), so it took 18 years for NHFS to care about catcher's heads. 

It was a 2001 NFHS rule revision:

1-1-5 (Add)To add to the end of the rule: ... And have full ear protection (dual ear flaps).
Rationale: Require a catcher to wear head protection with double ear flaps. In order to qualify for the NOCSAE standard the testing procedures entails side of head impact test.

[SeeingEyeDog]

There is a very easy way of pre-emptively handling these kinds of situations...

Every single time one takes the field to umpire a game, one should be sure to ask at the plate meeting after establishing what the basis of the rules for the game are (OBR, NFHS, LL, USSSA, Charlie Chan, whatever...), "Ok coaches, what are your local modifications to these rules that we need to be aware of in order to adjudicate this game?" I just worked my first Legion game of the season last week. I haven't been on a Legion field for 10 months...so, I don't know recall what their OBR modifications might be and in fact, a new season might mean new rules so, I asked at the plate meeting.

I always make a note of whatever we agree upon in my notebook so, it can be referenced later if necessary.

Let's say for a moment that you've asked my above question at the plate meeting and neither coach said ANYTHING about a modification to the 3-1 move rule...guess what? Rules are binary. The rule either applies as written in the rule book or the local modification referenced at the plate meeting applies. Umpires do not allow coaches or anyone else to modify the rules after the end of the plate meeting.

That's why asking that question is so important. If this is my game and I've asked them about rules modifications and they've said nothing about the 3-1 move being a balk under FED, I can simply look at the coach and say, "Coach, we discussed local rule modifications at the plate meeting and there was no mention of a modification to the 3-1 move therefore, we will enforce the rules as written and there is no balk associated with that move by the pitcher." If they continue, warn and eject.

A local trend in my market is for some of the 18U travel tournaments under FED to make a tournament exception that F2 can wear a two-piece face mask and helmet. I have some personal issues with that mod but, nobody asked me. Some tournaments are permitting this exception and the better tournaments are not. The kids are playing under all of these different rule sets from week to week and it's plausible that they get confused or forget...that's why the umpires are there. This is a safety issue. You don't want this blowing back on you later if someone gets hurt and you didn't enforce the NOCSAE stamp rule if that's what they're playing under.. No, it's not the umpire's fault that someone got hurt but, if it's a rule, are we not umpires? Why open yourself up to uncomfortable phone calls from superiors if you don't have to?

~Dawg

[DevildogUmp]

21 hours ago, johnnyg08 said:

It was a 2001 NFHS rule revision:

1-1-5 (Add)To add to the end of the rule: ... And have full ear protection (dual ear flaps).
Rationale: Require a catcher to wear head protection with double ear flaps. In order to qualify for the NOCSAE standard the testing procedures entails side of head impact test.

Correct, in 2001 they had to add to the rule the requirement for dual ear flaps in order to meet the NOCSAE standard they imposed with the rule change in 1999.