Deflected U3K

[Slippery Fish]

Had an odd one in a game today. USSSA rules, so OBR. 11u if it matters.

1st batter of the inning. He swings at a pitch in the dirt that bounces off the catcher and then hits the batter in the leg. Catcher is momentarily confused where the ball is and the BR makes it safely to 1st.

I am BU, and call time to confer with my PU. I tell him that I saw it hit the batter and want to double check the rule. We agree that the BR should be out and I call the BR out. For the moment I'll leave out the consternation that followed and just focus on the accuracy of the call.

I looked up rule 6.01 after the game and now am about 50/50 on whether this was the right call. It's specifically the comment that is confusing me. In my play the ball deflected off the catcher first, but I'm having a tough time imagining any pitch deflecting off of the batter/batter runner that didn't deflect off the catcher or umpire first.

[LouisB]

A ball bouncing off the catcher and hitting the batter is NOT a hit by pitch.

[Slippery Fish]

Agreed...The question in OP is not whether this was a hit by pitch, but whether the batter is out because of the deflection.

[SeeingEyeDog]

Unless you have the batter deliberately deflecting or otherwise deliberately making contact with the ball after swinging, missing, the ball coming off F2 and then hitting the batter and this is the first batter of the inning...then the play stands and the B-R reached 1B safely.

If, in the judgement of the umpire(s), you have the batter deliberately deflecting the ball as described, then I have BR out for interference but, all of this action is bang-bang and this is 11U...BR would have a difficult time deliberately deflecting that live ball.

~Dawg

[grayhawk]

If it just deflects off the batter and he did nothing that clearly hindered the catcher's ability to field the ball, then this is nothing. If if deflected off of him and he subsequently kicked it (or did something else such as knocking it away with his bat) and it clearly hindered the catcher's ability to field the ball, then it's an immediate dead ball, the BR is out and any runners return.

[jimurrayalterego]

2 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Unless you have the batter deliberately deflecting or otherwise deliberately making contact with the ball after swinging, missing, the ball coming off F2 and then hitting the batter and this is the first batter of the inning...then the play stands and the B-R reached 1B safely.

If, in the judgement of the umpire(s), you have the batter deliberately deflecting the ball as described, then I have BR out for interference but, all of this action is bang-bang and this is 11U...BR would have a difficult time deliberately deflecting that live ball.

~Dawg

I think OBR 6.01(a)(1) and comment require a lot of parsing. But I wonder if you guys have not gone to that level of parsing or comprehended the letter of the rule or I have not comprehended the OP.

[jimurrayalterego]

6 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

If it just deflects off the batter and he did nothing that clearly hindered the catcher's ability to field the ball, then this is nothing. 

It is something: "If a pitch that is not caught remains in the vicinity of home plate and it is inadvertently deflected by the batter or umpire, that ball is a dead ball and the runners should return to the bases they occupied at the time of the pitch (but if the pitch was strike three, the batter is out)."

[Central Cal Umpire]

Here's the rule in question, I think:

 I think to justify an out call, it has to start with "...the batter-runner clearly hinders the catcher in his attempt to field the ball." That's the justification for calling the guy out on a strike three.

I don't see that here.

[grayhawk]

5 minutes ago, jimurrayalterego said:

It is something: "If a pitch that is not caught remains in the vicinity of home plate and it is inadvertently deflected by the batter or umpire, that ball is a dead ball and the runners should return to the bases they occupied at the time of the pitch (but if the pitch was strike three, the batter is out)."

Not the OP's play I am envisioning. Swing and a miss for K3, the ball deflects off the catcher and hits the batter in the leg. Unless he clearly hinders the catcher's attempt to field it, this is nothing. He is allowed to advance. 

[MadMax]

19 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

Not the OP's play I am envisioning. Swing and a miss for K3, the ball deflects off the catcher and hits the batter in the leg. Unless he clearly hinders the catcher's attempt to field it, this is nothing. He is allowed to advance. 

OBR-for-Pros has instituted that the BR is Out, even for something (ie. deflected pitched ball touching BatterRunner on U3K) inadvertent or innocuous. NCAA followed on soon after, taking the “in the (Plate) Umpire’s judgement” element out of it, and making it much more cut-&-dry. 

I think, for the amateur (non-college) game, it’s less harsh and more humane to err on the side of it being inadvertent rather than intentional. This is one point where NFHS does make (more) contextual sense, and where OBR-used-for-amateurs does a disservice. I think @Slippery Fish is in that twilight zone (Oo! Cue Rod Serling!) where the letter-of-the-law doesn’t quite fit the spirit of the game he’s calling. 

We’ve all been in that zone; this is not unique. 

[Slippery Fish]

I appreciate the context, @MadMax. Is this a rule that was changed sometime in the recent past?

And I'll be honest, I'm still confused by this. Why do the rule and comment lay out very different standards for interference (i.e. the rule just requires "inadvertent deflection" (by the batter or the umpire), while the comment requires the batter-runner to "clearly hinder" the catcher)?

I feel like they are trying to cover different situations, but I'm really struggling to see what they would be. How can a ball be inadvertently deflected by the batter without having first been deflected off of the catcher or umpire? Does the ball have to come to rest? 

51 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

If, in the judgement of the umpire(s), you have the batter deliberately deflecting the ball as described, then I have BR out for interference but, all of this action is bang-bang and this is 11U...BR would have a difficult time deliberately deflecting that live ball.

And I'm going to respectfully disagree with Brother Dawg here. In OBR at least, I don't think either the standard in the rule (inadvertent deflection) or the comment (clear hindrance) require intent. I haven't looked this up in FED, but based upon this thread it appears there may be a difference.

 

 

[The Man in Blue]

Just trying to clarify . . . 

NFHS requires intent.

OBR and NCAA kill it regardless of reason.

Right?

 

OK, I have an odd take on this:

1 hour ago, Central Cal Umpire said:

Here's the rule in question, I think:

 I think to justify an out call, it has to start with "...the batter-runner clearly hinders the catcher in his attempt to field the ball." That's the justification for calling the guy out on a strike three.

I don't see that here.

 

So . . . catcher whiffs the K3 catch completely and it bangs the umpire.  Dead ball?  Why is this different from any other pitch where we are fair game?

[Tog Gee]

Common sense says that the batter cannot disappear immediately after swinging.

Did the ball get deflected into the batter or did the batter deflect the ball?

If the battery made a mistake/mishandled the ball and they deflected the ball directly into the batter, then we can't punish the batter.

 

 

 

  

7 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

So . . . catcher whiffs the K3 catch completely and it bangs the umpire.  Dead ball?  Why is this different from any other pitch where we are fair game?

I don't think that's the same as 'inadvertently deflected'.

 

[grayhawk]

 

12 hours ago, MadMax said:

OBR-for-Pros has instituted that the BR is Out, even for something (ie. deflected pitched ball touching BatterRunner on U3K) inadvertent or innocuous. NCAA followed on soon after, taking the “in the (Plate) Umpire’s judgement” element out of it, and making it much more cut-&-dry. 

 

I disagree and I think people are misinterpreting this part (note where I bolded)

"If a pitch that is not caught remains in the vicinity of home plate and it is inadvertently deflected by the batter or umpire, that ball is a dead ball and the runners should return to the bases they occupied at the time of the pitch (but if the pitch was strike three, the batter is out)."

This is for situations where the batter does not become the batter-runner and cannot advance to 1B.  0-2, 1 out, R1 only. The batter swings and misses, the pitch bounces off F2's chest and is then inadvertently deflected (NOT just touches him, but actually deflects away) by the batter and R1 advances. The batter is out on strike 3. Kill it and send R1 back.

HOWEVER...

This is from 7-11h Note (NCAA) and 6.01(a)(1) Comment (OBR):

"If the pitched ball deflects off the catcher or umpire and subsequently touches the batter-runner, it is not considered interference unless, in the judgment of the umpire, the batter-runner clearly hinders the catcher in their attempt to field the ball."

This is for situations where the batter becomes the batter-runner. The umpire must judge whether or not the BR clearly hindered (intent not required). In the OP, he only says the ball hits the batter in the leg. Unless something else happened (such as the BR kicking the ball away), this gets a safe signal and "That's nothing."

[Velho]

5 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

"If a pitch that is not caught remains in the vicinity of home plate

Not weighing in on interpretations but I think "remains" is a very interesting word here. Not unlike HBT "takes position".

[Slippery Fish]

34 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

This is for situations where the batter does not become the batter-runner and cannot advance to 1B.  0-2, 1 out, R1 only. The batter swings and misses, the pitch bounces off F2's chest and is then inadvertently deflected (NOT just touches him, but actually deflects away) by the batter and R1 advances. The batter is out on strike 3. Kill it and send R1 back.

@Grayhawk, that explanation makes sense. I didn't catch the difference in batter/batter-runner verbiage.

So by this interpretation, I kicked the OP because I should have been looking for "clear hinderance" rather than "inadvertent deflection". Correct? (TBH, I thought the standard was just contact with the ball 🤦‍♂️).

My clarification question is, batter becomes batter runner on U3K, ball goes under the catcher and the umpire deflects it with his foot as he's trying to get out of the way. Play on? 

--

And just so I clarify the "inadvertent deflection" part of this rule. The way I'm understanding it is that if the umpire or batter hits the ball it meets the standard, but if the ball hits the batter or umpire it does not. 

By way of example, let's say we have R1 so batter does not become BR

12 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

So . . . catcher whiffs the K3 catch completely and it bangs the umpire.  Dead ball?  Why is this different from any other pitch where we are fair game?

Play on, because the umpire was struck while in his stance (ball hits umpire). Dead ball if the ball falls to the ground and the umpire hits it with his foot as he's getting out of the way (umpire hits ball).

Or for the batter, ball bounces off the catcher and hits the batter in the back of the leg. Play on. Ball bounces off the catcher and the batter kicks it backwards as he's backing out of the box. Dead ball. 

Am I thinking about all of that correctly?

[grayhawk]

32 minutes ago, Slippery Fish said:

So by this interpretation, I kicked the OP because I should have been looking for "clear hinderance" rather than "inadvertent deflection". Correct? (TBH, I thought the standard was just contact with the ball 🤦‍♂️).

If the deflection (not just touching) ended up hindering the F2 from fielding the ball, then the BR would be out and runner(s) return. In your scenario, it sounds like the ball just touched his leg and F2 didn't know where the ball was. Very different.

34 minutes ago, Slippery Fish said:

My clarification question is, batter becomes batter runner on U3K, ball goes under the catcher and the umpire deflects it with his foot as he's trying to get out of the way. Play on? 

Yes

35 minutes ago, Slippery Fish said:

And just so I clarify the "inadvertent deflection" part of this rule. The way I'm understanding it is that if the umpire or batter hits the ball it meets the standard, but if the ball hits the batter or umpire it does not. 

Seems like a good way to think about it, but I would add if the batter or umpire hits the ball AND in doing so, it clearly hinders F2 from fielding the ball.

38 minutes ago, Slippery Fish said:

Play on, because the umpire was struck while in his stance (ball hits umpire). Dead ball if the ball falls to the ground and the umpire hits it with his foot as he's getting out of the way (umpire hits ball).

 

If this is a play where the batter doesn't become the batter-runner, yes.

38 minutes ago, Slippery Fish said:

Or for the batter, ball bounces off the catcher and hits the batter in the back of the leg. Play on. Ball bounces off the catcher and the batter kicks it backwards as he's backing out of the box. Dead ball. 

Correct.

[Velho]

24 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

1 hour ago, Slippery Fish said:

Dead ball if the ball falls to the ground and the umpire hits it with his foot as he's getting out of the way (umpire hits ball).

 

If this is a play where the batter doesn't become the batter-runner, yes.

Note to self: only drop step (don't shuffle feet) and don't lift foot more than 2" off the ground.