"Unscoring" a run

[DevildogUmp]

R1/R3 - 1 out. Runners off on the pitch, fly ball to the outfield for out #2. R3 has crossed the plate, but retreats (touching the plate on the way back) and is between 3rd and home when the defense doubles off R1 for out #3. Defense leaves the field. Does R3's run count or has the runner "unscored" the run by retreating back to 3rd? I am under the impression that the run will not count, but I can't put my finger on a NFHS rule or case play that gives an answer either way. I am told that NHFS softball caseplay 9.1.1 K covers this, but I don't do softball so that doesn't help.

[jimurrayalterego]

54 minutes ago, DevildogUmp said:

R1/R3 - 1 out. Runners off on the pitch, fly ball to the outfield for out #2. R3 has crossed the plate, but retreats (touching the plate on the way back) and is between 3rd and home when the defense doubles off R1 for out #3. Defense leaves the field. Does R3's run count or has the runner "unscored" the run by retreating back to 3rd? I am under the impression that the run will not count, but I can't put my finger on a NFHS rule or case play that gives an answer either way. I am told that NHFS softball caseplay 9.1.1 K covers this, but I don't do softball so that doesn't help.

In OBR you, the ump,can not unscore a legally scored run which I think this is without an appeal. 

'Rule 5.08(a) Comment: A run legally scored cannot be nullified by subsequent action of the runner, such as but not limited to an effort to return to third base in the belief that he had left the base before a caught fly ball."

[DevildogUmp]

46 minutes ago, jimurrayalterego said:

In OBR you, the ump,can not unscore a legally scored run which I think this is without an appeal. 

'Rule 5.08(a) Comment: A run legally scored cannot be nullified by subsequent action of the runner, such as but not limited to an effort to return to third base in the belief that he had left the base before a caught fly ball."

but in this case, was a run legally scored? The runner failed to tag up. The comment almost makes it sound like it only applies when the runner only believes he left early, so if he hadn't, then he can't nullify the legal run by retreating.

[jimurrayalterego]

3 minutes ago, DevildogUmp said:

but in this case, was a run legally scored? The runner failed to tag up. The comment almost makes it sound like it only applies when the runner only believes he left early, so if he hadn't, then he can't nullify the legal run by retreating.

They say "such as" but we can we decide the belief of the runner as to his leaving the early or judge his run wasn't legally scored without an appeal? Good question.

[MadMax]

It is a scored run. He crossed and/or touched the plate. The only way this can be undone (or negated) is: 

• If he had not touched the plate, the defense conducts an appeal. 
• If he had not properly tagged up on a caught batted ball, and the defense conducts an appeal. 
• If he had not touched a preceding base, last time by, and the defense conducts an appeal. 
• If a previous scoring runner had not touched the plate, and the defense conducts an appeal, resulting in the 3rd Out. 
• If the Batter-Runner did not touch 1B, or any Forced Runner did not touch the base they were forced to, and the defense conducts an appeal, resulting in the 3rd Out. 

Now, keep in mind, that NFHS allows for Dead-Ball Appeals. Thus, the “defense leaves the field”, is only a teeny-tiny relevant, if relevant at all. Instead, no coach approached and/or inquired of you so as to appeal, so once we (plate umpire) make the ball Live to start the next half inning, any appeals on this matter would be denied (or should it be a different threshold? First pitch of that new half inning?) 

[The Man in Blue]

16 hours ago, MadMax said:

Now, keep in mind, that NFHS allows for Dead-Ball Appeals. Thus, the “defense leaves the field”, is only a teeny-tiny relevant, if relevant at all. Instead, no coach approached and/or inquired of you so as to appeal, so once we (plate umpire) make the ball Live to start the next half inning, any appeals on this matter would be denied (or should it be a different threshold? First pitch of that new half inning?) 

 

Max, I know none of us are perfect, but that's two in a few days!  😋

The defense leaving the field is a HUGE part of it.  Once they have all left fair territory, they can no longer appeal.

 

[Velho]

Hold up a minute… not OP but the “can’t unscore” has its limits, no?

if R2 rounds and misses 3B on an OF hit, touches and passes HP, turns around, retouches HP, touches 3B, and remains on 3B - we’re not saying that run scores are we?

[noumpere]

43 minutes ago, Velho said:

Hold up a minute… not OP but the “can’t unscore” has its limits, no?

if R2 rounds and misses 3B on an OF hit, touches and passes HP, turns around, retouches HP, touches 3B, and remains on 3B - we’re not saying that run scores are we?

Not at all.  Don't know how you got that from the conversation.

[Richvee]

37 minutes ago, noumpere said:

Not at all.  Don't know how you got that from the conversation.

I think it’s almost the same scenario. 
R3 leaves crack of the bat. So does R1. R3 crosses home, now the ball is caught. R3 retouches home and heads to back 3b while the throw comes  in and retires R1 to end the inning. R3, now in between home and 3b, trots to the dugout - the inning is over. How could we score that run?  When would we “declare” run scores?  The defense would never consider appealing seeing r3 between 3rd and home, but if the umpire claims”score the run “ now they would appeal. 🤷‍♂️

[jimurrayalterego]

17 minutes ago, Richvee said:

I think it’s almost the same scenario. 
R3 leaves crack of the bat. So does R1. R3 crosses home, now the ball is caught. R3 retouches home and heads to back 3b while the throw comes  in and retires R1 to end the inning. R3, now in between home and 3b, trots to the dugout - the inning is over. How could we score that run?  When would we “declare” run scores?  The defense would never consider appealing seeing r3 between 3rd and home, but if the umpire claims”score the run “ now they would appeal. 🤷‍♂️

I'm having a Mother's Day martini, FYI, but normally, other than time plays, umpires don't score runs. We don't allow a legally scored run to be unscored by runner action but we would not say score that run. I think it would score until appealed.

[DevildogUmp]

3 hours ago, Velho said:

Hold up a minute… not OP but the “can’t unscore” has its limits, no?

if R2 rounds and misses 3B on an OF hit, touches and passes HP, turns around, retouches HP, touches 3B, and remains on 3B - we’re not saying that run scores are we?

That would be my next question. What do we do with a runner who returns (properly) after crossing the plate to 3B to correct the running error and remains there with less than 3 outs? If he stays at third, where is the distinguishing line between this play and my original play?

[Richvee]

1 hour ago, jimurrayalterego said:

I'm having a Mother's Day martini, FYI, but normally, other than time plays, umpires don't score runs. We don't allow a legally scored run to be unscored by runner action but we would not say score that run. I think it would score until appealed.

But this is a time play. R3  crossed the plate before the appeal out on R1… but then R1 went back. 

[Replacematt]

This run does not score, as once a runner starts to return to correct a baserunning error, the run is no longer scored (Wendelstedt 5.5.2.) I'd have no heartburn applying that to FED unless there is something published to the contrary.

In fact, with the assistance of two caseplays, Wendelstedt goes so far to say that a runner that attempts to return to home after missing it unscores their run by doing so.

[jimurrayalterego]

6 hours ago, Replacematt said:

This run does not score, as once a runner starts to return to correct a baserunning error, the run is no longer scored (Wendelstedt 5.5.2.) I'd have no heartburn applying that to FED unless there is something published to the contrary.

In fact, with the assistance of two caseplays, Wendelstedt goes so far to say that a runner that attempts to return to home after missing it unscores their run by doing so.

That makes sense if we judge legally scored means base touched with no possibility of appeal. Does Wendelstedt give an example of a play which fits the "not limited to" case.

[Replacematt]

12 minutes ago, jimurrayalterego said:

That makes sense if we judge legally scored means base touched with no possibility of appeal. Does Wendelstedt give an example of a play which fits the "not limited to" case.

That is what legally scored means. 

If there's the possibility of appeal, the attempt to return unscores the run. If there is no possibility, nothing can unscore the run. 

[Velho]

1 minute ago, Replacematt said:

If there's the possibility of appeal, the attempt to return unscores the run. If there is no possibility, nothing can unscore the run. 

To confirm the implications of what that means:

1) Runner touched every base but incorrectly believes they missed a base and retouches HP as they retreat to 3B or beyond: Run scores.*

2) Runner touches HP but DID miss a bases touch: When they retouch HP they "unscore". Whatever happens after that is same as if they had never touched HP in the first place. Meaning they can cure their missed touch, be tagged out, or appealed out for missed touch.

* Let's ignore clean up post-play mechanics for now.

[Replacematt]

42 minutes ago, Velho said:

To confirm the implications of what that means:

1) Runner touched every base but incorrectly believes they missed a base and retouches HP as they retreat to 3B or beyond: Run scores.*

2) Runner touches HP but DID miss a bases touch: When they retouch HP they "unscore". Whatever happens after that is same as if they had never touched HP in the first place. Meaning they can cure their missed touch, be tagged out, or appealed out for missed touch.

* Let's ignore clean up post-play mechanics for now.

Close. 

1 is correct.

2: Once they start their attempt to retouch, the run unscores.

[Velho]

14 minutes ago, Replacematt said:

2: Once they start their attempt to retouch, the run unscores.

Ok. So moving to mechanics...

For example, R2 misses 3B, touches HP, goes 20 feet past HP, takes a step back retouch HP. That is immediately followed by:

A) F2 sees R2 coming back to touch HP and assumes it's because R2 missed HP. F2 tags R2. What do you signal?

B) BR is tagged out at 2B for the 3rd out. What do you do?

C) R2 retouches HP and is between 3B and HP when BR is tagged out at 2B for the 3rd out. What do you do?

D) R1 touches HP. What do you do?

 

[Replacematt]

12 minutes ago, Velho said:

A) F2 sees R2 coming back to touch HP and assumes it's because R2 missed HP. F2 tags R2. What do you signal? Probably call R2 out, since I doubt that F2 is going to specifically call out a miss of home. I'm going to be very broadly accepting of an out here as long as it's an appeal, and not requiring it to be the appeal.

B) BR is tagged out at 2B for the 3rd out. What do you do? Signal that the run does not score. This is one of the exact case plays.

C) R2 retouches HP and is between 3B and HP when BR is tagged out at 2B for the 3rd out. What do you do? Signal that the run does not score.

D) R1 touches HP. What do you do? Nothing. This concept is for third-out situations. If the inning does not end on this play, then the run still counts pending appeal.

 

 

[Velho]

10 minutes ago, Replacematt said:

If the inning does not end on this play, then the run still counts pending appeal.

And in the case the runner does make it back to 3B and you, as HP, don't know if they missed any base touches do you conference and:

1) If there was a miss of 3B, say nothing, reset and put the ball in play?

2) If there were no misses, direct the runner to the dugout and declare the run scored?

3) If there was a miss of 2B or 1B, say nothing, reset, then react to any proper appeal?

[Replacematt]

3 minutes ago, Velho said:

And in the case the runner does make it back to 3B and you, as HP, don't know if they missed any base touches do you conference and:

1) If there was a miss of 3B, say nothing, reset and put the ball in play?

2) If there were no misses, direct the runner to the dugout and declare the run scored?

3) If there was a miss of 2B or 1B, say nothing, reset, then react to any proper appeal?

1: Correct--the miss has been fixed.

2: Exactly; covered in the same interpretation.

3: Was there a miss of 3B? If so, see 1. If not, remove the runner and they are still liable to be put out pending proper appeal.

[Velho]

Appreciate the detail and patience...

10 minutes ago, Replacematt said:

3: Was there a miss of 3B? If so, see 1. If not, remove the runner and they are still liable to be put out pending proper appeal.

What if this was TOP R1, they missed 2B on a hit, but stopped at 3B on their reverse trip (for whatever reason) - declare them scored, send them to the dugout, and call out if properly appealed for missing 2B?

[BLWizzRanger]

1 hour ago, Replacematt said:

B) BR is tagged out at 2B for the 3rd out. What do you do? Signal that the run does not score. This is one of the exact case plays.

Why isn't this a 4th out appeal scenario where the appeal to 3rd must be made? R3 only made a step back to HP after running 20 feet past it and hadn't retouched HP yet.

[Replacematt]

49 minutes ago, BLWizzRanger said:

Why isn't this a 4th out appeal scenario where the appeal to 3rd must be made? R3 only made a step back to HP after running 20 feet past it and hadn't retouched HP yet.

Because the interpretation and case plays state that the run is unscored if the runner starts an attempt to correct their error and the third out is made before they correct it and retouch home plate.

[Replacematt]

1 hour ago, Velho said:

Appreciate the detail and patience...

What if this was TOP R1, they missed 2B on a hit, but stopped at 3B on their reverse trip (for whatever reason) - declare them scored, send them to the dugout, and call out if properly appealed for missing 2B?

That's how I would do it.