Obstruction?

[Kevin_K]

From my Fed game yesterday....

• B1 hits a ground ball to F5 who fumbles the play. F5 picks up the ball and throws to 1B, but overthrows and the ball hits the fence and bounds toward RF.
• B1 turned his shoulders to his left (toward 2B) but it did not look like he was going to advance.
• F4 goes to retrieve the ball
• As B1 crosses 1B, F3 turns to his right and collides with B1 who has already crossed the bag. Both F3 and B1 hit the deck. 

Is this obstruction on F3?

[Richvee]

1 hour ago, Kevin_K said:

B1 turned his shoulders to his left (toward 2B) but it did not look like he was going to advance.

I think this is the key element. I would say you need to judge if B1 was making an attempt to advance and was hindered. 

The more is hear about and watch these plays that are either something/nothing/Interference/obstruction...I find a recent piece of advice I received from an accomplished umpire/trainer..."When these plays happen, often it's a lot of judgement, and there's no right or wrong answer. Make your call based on what you saw and the applicable rules, and be ready to explain to the team on the losing end of the call, what you saw, and, with rulebook terminology, why you called what you called.  

[834k3r]

I'd say it's definitely a HTBT, but I think I'd have nothing based on the OP.

[noumpere]

From 2008 (but I think it's still in the case book):

SITUATION 14: With a lazy, one-hop single to the right fielder, the batter rounds first base with no intention or action of advancing to second base. As he takes a few easy strides past first base, he contacts the first baseman who is partially in his path. RULING: Since the batter was making no attempt to advance to second base, the first baseman did not hinder him or change the pattern of the play. As a result, obstruction would not be called. Any benefit of the doubt would be given to the batter-runner if there was a question in the covering umpire's mind. (3-22-1)

Normally, when we see "something" that's really "nothing" we should signal safe and verbalize "that's nothing."  In the OP, though, I'd hold off. If BR remains on the ground and F4 retrieves the ball ad tags BR, I think we now have to have OBS.

 

In OBR, we *could* call the OBS immediately.  Since no play is being made, we can just put BR back at first if he's tagged.

[Velho]

1 minute ago, noumpere said:

If BR remains on the ground and F4 retrieves the ball ad tags BR, I think we now have to have OBS.

Adding for sake of completion: ...which would be an award of 2B by rule in NFHS.

[SH0102]

And this is why I don’t like the automatic base award.

Id absolutely protect him back into first base, so if you say that’s nothing bc he isn’t getting second, he could theoretically get put out bc he is on ground hurt and tagged.

Id make no call as someone else suggested and wait and see, and if they’re going to get him out bc he was knocked to ground, get obs and rules require he go to second.

Much easier call in ncaa and obr bc you can call it, and not award anything you don’t feel he’d have gotten

[Richvee]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

If BR remains on the ground and F4 retrieves the ball ad tags BR, I think we now have to have OBS

Wouldn’t  that assume Kevin had the BR making a move towards 2B? I think if the runner made an attempt to 2B before the collision, it would be obstruction no matter of a tag attempt or not. If Kevin didn’t have the BR attempt towards 2B, the tag would just require a “safe” call. 

[Velho]

20 minutes ago, Richvee said:

If Kevin didn’t have the BR attempt towards 2B, the tag would just require a “safe” call. 

We're talking NFHS here so what non-OBS basis are you using to call the off-base BR safe at 1B?

Or, are you debating the 2B award for OBS on the off-base BR?

[Richvee]

2 hours ago, Velho said:

We're talking NFHS here so what non-OBS basis are you using to call the off-base BR safe at 1B?

Or, are you debating the 2B award for OBS on the off-base BR?

If he overran 1B, collided with F3, never made a move to 2B, there’s no obstruction, he simply over ran the base and hasn’t gone back yet. 
Casebook 8.3.2sit k

[Velho]

43 minutes ago, Richvee said:

2 hours ago, Velho said:

We're talking NFHS here so what non-OBS basis are you using to call the off-base BR safe at 1B?

Or, are you debating the 2B award for OBS on the off-base BR?

If he overran 1B, collided with F3, never made a move to 2B, there’s no obstruction, he simply over ran the base and hasn’t gone back yet. 

I think you're being too rational. 😉

Strict interp of NFHS would say you can't have it both ways - if there is no OBS, he's out because he was tagged while off the base. If he's not out because of OBS that occurred after 1B, the mandatory +1 award sends him to 2B. No?

[Richvee]

1 hour ago, Velho said:

I think you're being too rational. 😉

Strict interp of NFHS would say you can't have it both ways - if there is no OBS, he's out because he was tagged while off the base. If he's not out because of OBS that occurred after 1B, the mandatory +1 award sends him to 2B. No?

I'm just using the caseplay as a guide. It says there's no obstruction if the collision happens after the bag. He's not out for being off the base..He simply hasn't returned yet from overrunning 1B. 

[Tborze]

13 hours ago, Velho said:

I think you're being too rational. 😉

Strict interp of NFHS would say you can't have it both ways - if there is no OBS, he's out because he was tagged while off the base. If he's not out because of OBS that occurred after 1B, the mandatory +1 award sends him to 2B. No?

Aren’t you allowed to overrun 1st?  

[Velho]

1 hour ago, Tborze said:

Aren’t you allowed to overrun 1st?  

 

It took me a while (I'm thick). 

[The Man in Blue]

12 hours ago, Tborze said:

Aren’t you allowed to overrun 1st?  

Why would an umpire need to overrun first base?  😋

I view obstruction the same way I view interference . . . if there isn't anything there, there isn't anything there to obstruct/interfere with. 

It drives me nuts when (usually in Jr. High ball), they teach their runners to round first base and look for an obstruction bump.  Sorry coach, if he wasn't going, he wasn't going.  No, that is not what changed his mind.

[Velho]

37 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

13 hours ago, Tborze said:

Aren’t you allowed to overrun 1st?  

Why would an umpire need to overrun first base?  😋

My excessively myopic view was better suited to a play at 2B with R1 knocked over and injured by F6 after rounding 2B but with not intention to go to 3B. If R1 is tagged off the bag and you invoke OBS, you have to advance  them to 3B in NFHS (and just back to 2B in other sets)

[The Man in Blue]

Totally agree that NFHS Baseball has this all wrong with the automatic +1 award.

I'll point out NFHS Softball does it the way everybody else does -- negate the obstruction.  If that is forward, it is forward, if it is backward, it is backward.  So, it isn't all of NFHS . . . 😁  

[Replacematt]

12 hours ago, Velho said:

 

It took me a while (I'm thick). 

Hol'up.

I'm still sitting on a collision post-1B. The case play has nothing, as we know. However...

The collision means that BR did not immediately return to 1B. They are not on a base. They do not occupy a base. If they are injured, at what point do we do anything? 

[Kevin_K]

I appreciate the feedback from all parties. The case book plays are tangential and provide some direction but no clear guidance. 

The wrinkle here is that the overthrow offered the potential for B1 to advance to second which was nullified because of the contact with F3. That's what pushed me toward obstruction.

On the field I ruled it as obstruction immediately and in an animated  fashion. The DHC and I had a spirited conversation offering many of the points raised here that ended with something like: We can go round and round on this and neither of us is going to convince the other.

Ultimately the advanced runner had no impact as the offense was retired without scoring anyone.

[Richvee]

9 hours ago, Kevin_K said:

I appreciate the feedback from all parties. The case book plays are tangential and provide some direction but no clear guidance. 

The wrinkle here is that the overthrow offered the potential for B1 to advance to second which was nullified because of the contact with F3. That's what pushed me toward obstruction.

On the field I ruled it as obstruction immediately and in an animated  fashion. The DHC and I had a spirited conversation offering many of the points raised here that ended with something like: We can go round and round on this and neither of us is going to convince the other.

Ultimately the advanced runner had no impact as the offense was retired without scoring anyone.

Which brings me back to my original post on this type of play

On 4/11/2025 at 12:37 PM, Richvee said:

"When these plays happen, often it's a lot of judgement, and there's no right or wrong answer. Make your call based on what you saw and the applicable rules, and be ready to explain to the team on the losing end of the call, what you saw, and, with rulebook terminology, why you called what you called.