Slide Rules

[Kali]

It seems to me that we really have two different slide rules and I don't know why that is.  In the definition of illegal slide in 2-32-2c

A slide is illegal if, except at home plate, the runner goes beyond the base and then makes contact with or alters the play of the fielder.

So we look at 8-4-2b and see that: Any runner is out when (he/she/it) does not legally slide and causes contact and/or illegally alters the actions of the fielder in the immediate act of making a play, or on a force play, does not slide in a direct line between the bases

So consider the two cases of an R1 stealing 2nd vs an R1 being forced to 2nd by the BR.  In the case of the steal, a fielder standing next to the base is not protected while in a force play the same fielder is protected.  A fielder standing beyond the base is protected in both situations.  Why the difference?  Isn't this a safety rule to protect the fielders?

Also, I've had some long discussions with upper level umpires who see this as a "petty" rule and tell me it should only be called when the over-slide is egregious and/or serious injury occurs.  But don't we call it during slight infractions to prevent the serious injury situations?

Finally a pop-up slide that contacts a fielder is also defined as illegal in all cases, but the rule doesn't mention any location.  So I have to assume that a pop-up slide that contacts the fielder on top of the base is illegal even if there is no follow on play to be made.  This is another one that I'm told is "petty".

[johnnyg08]

3 hours ago, Kali said:

It seems to me that we really have two different slide rules and I don't know why that is.  In the definition of illegal slide in 2-32-2c

A slide is illegal if, except at home plate, the runner goes beyond the base and then makes contact with or alters the play of the fielder.

So we look at 8-4-2b and see that: Any runner is out when (he/she/it) does not legally slide and causes contact and/or illegally alters the actions of the fielder in the immediate act of making a play, or on a force play, does not slide in a direct line between the bases

So consider the two cases of an R1 stealing 2nd vs an R1 being forced to 2nd by the BR.  In the case of the steal, a fielder standing next to the base is not protected while in a force play the same fielder is protected.  A fielder standing beyond the base is protected in both situations.  Why the difference?  Isn't this a safety rule to protect the fielders?

Also, I've had some long discussions with upper level umpires who see this as a "petty" rule and tell me it should only be called when the over-slide is egregious and/or serious injury occurs.  But don't we call it during slight infractions to prevent the serious injury situations?

Finally a pop-up slide that contacts a fielder is also defined as illegal in all cases, but the rule doesn't mention any location.  So I have to assume that a pop-up slide that contacts the fielder on top of the base is illegal even if there is no follow on play to be made.  This is another one that I'm told is "petty".

Slide rules aren't petty, they're safety rules. Pop up slides into a fielder are illegal. The NFHS amended the rule slightly to allow a runner to legally slide through home plate, but not the other bases. 

Want to see slide rules forced correctly? Watch the NCAA baseball postseason. Those umpires do a great job of enforcing those "petty" safety rules. 

When in Rome..you gotta do what you gotta do...but the reality is that not enough umpires enforce the safety rules. 

[noumpere]

The “slide directly to the base” rule is only for the force because that’s when the runner will slide to the side—to break up any subsequent play. On a steal, the runner is sliding directly to the base or away from the fielder. 

[Kali]

So noumpere, you're saying the Force Play Slide Rule is NOT a safety rule designed to protect the fielder but simply a fair play rule?

[maven]

20 minutes ago, Kali said:

So noumpere, you're saying the Force Play Slide Rule is NOT a safety rule designed to protect the fielder but simply a fair play rule?

How could that possibly follow logically from what he said?

I take it he was responding to your question about there being "2 slide rules." The definition of illegal slides applies to all slides, on all plays.

FPSR has a more limited scope, applying only to force plays. It adds additional protections for infielders. Illegal slides also may violate FPSR; but not all illegal slides invoke the FPSR penalty.

Illegal slides may also be INT.

All slide rules prioritize player safety.

[noumpere]

46 minutes ago, Kali said:

So noumpere, you're saying the Force Play Slide Rule is NOT a safety rule designed to protect the fielder but simply a fair play rule?

No. I’m addressing the OP question of why sliding to the side of the base where the fielder is located is legal on a non-force play and illegal on a force play. 

[Kali]

Maven.  If a player stealing 2nd slides (using a legal slide) into the feet of a fielder next to the bag, since it isn't a force play, we don't call that an out.  If the same exact thing happens on a force play, we DO call him out for violating the FPSL.  Because we don't call the same thing in both situations, this can't be a safety rule.  We are only calling the out on the force play because the runner deprived the fielder the ability to make the play.  That is how this goes logically.

[UAME]

57 minutes ago, Kali said:

Maven.  If a player stealing 2nd slides (using a legal slide) into the feet of a fielder next to the bag, since it isn't a force play, we don't call that an out.  If the same exact thing happens on a force play, we DO call him out for violating the FPSL.  Because we don't call the same thing in both situations, this can't be a safety rule.  We are only calling the out on the force play because the runner deprived the fielder the ability to make the play.  That is how this goes logically.

NOT SO.

NFHS Case Play 2.32.1: With R1 at first base, a ground ball is hit to F6, who throws to F4 covering second.  R1 slides late at second, stays in the baseline, but R1 makes contact with F4 who is in front of the base, causing F4 to overthrow first base.

RULING: Providing the slide is legal and the contact is not malicious, there is no violation.

 

For me, the way to think of these rulings is that NFHS wants to punish behavior of the runner OR fielder (or at least not reward it) that increases the chances of collision/injury.  Fielders aren't protected on the "incoming" side of the base because NFHS doesn't want them there; (where else is a runner supposed to approach the bag?)

[MadMax]

1 hour ago, Kali said:

That is how this goes logically.

Your logic is flawed. 

1 hour ago, Kali said:

We are only calling the out on the force play because the runner deprived the fielder the ability to make the play.

Which play? The “front-half” of the play, which retired the R1? Or, the “back-half”, the play upon BR? 

Methinks you’re forgetting, that in the case of (nearly all) FPSR, the Runner (in this case, R1) is already out. If he commits a (FPSR) violation, which is a form of INT, he cannot be called Out twice. Someone (else) must be called Out, thus, it’s the BR. That’s defined in the Rules (all codes; OBR doesn’t have a FPSR, but a violation of their “bonafide slide” rule brings the same penalty). 

1 hour ago, Kali said:

If a player stealing 2nd slides (using a legal slide) into the feet of a fielder next to the bag, since it isn't a force play, we don't call that an out.

Where’s the ball? 🤔 

You seem to be fixated on a steal play (of 2B by R1). So on this steal play, if the F4/6 has received the throw, and is waiting to apply the tag, we’re going to adjudge how R1 arrives at 2B. We’re looking for tag (by Fielder) vs. touch (of Base by R1). If the R1 commits an illegal slide for the purposes of dislodging the baseball / contacting the fielder, then that is a form of INT, and he (should be) called Out. In fairness, these sorts of plays are rare. 

On that same play, let’s say that F2 overthrows 2B, and the ball skips off F4/6’s glove, but he’s reacting that he caught it, and places a tag on R1. This is a form of OBS, and should be called as such… regardless, if a R1 commits an illegal slide, egregiously (think cleats-up), he is still liable for a MC call. Again, these plays are exceptionally rare. 

1 hour ago, Kali said:

this can't be a safety rule. 

Uhhhh… every umpire in NCAA has had it drilled into their lexicon, by the Director of Officiating, the members of the Rules Committee (which includes representatives of the coaches, BTW), and every director and trainer at each of the 5 levels under NCAA’s umbrella – the FPSR is a safety rule. 

If a typical DP unfolds, and the F4 scoops it up, dashes across and touches 2B (with his momentum taking him visibly into the infield), and throws on to 1B, but the R1 still ‘lopes on in to 2B “standing up”, we (NCAA umpires) were directed to call that a FPSR violation. Did he slide (and commit a legal slide)? No. Did he veer away? No. Thus, violation. As a consequence, BR would be called Out as well. 

[Velho]

The difference in languages I'm seeing is the direct line or not, which was addressed:

2 hours ago, noumpere said:

sliding to the side of the base where the fielder is located is legal on a non-force play

31 minutes ago, MadMax said:

if a R1 commits an illegal slide, egregiously (think cleats-up), he is still liable for a MC call.

To clarify what's being said (assuming in both cases it's a qualified a legal slide):

In FPSR, the slide has to be a direct line the base

In non-FPSR, the slide can be direct or to the side so long as it's not malicious

Unless there is a confusion with the above, I think @Kali is questioning why, given the safety emphasis, is a legal slide into a fielder on the side of the base on a non-force play allowed? If the slide was dictated as being direct line, wouldn't that improve safety?

Or, is it that a non-force slide is going to be a tag play - which has inherent risk (even short of MC) and any increased safety from dictating a direct line slide has to be balanced with putting the offense at a disadvantage (since the defense would know where they legally have to be)? Given that, no restriction is added.

 

[BigBlue4u]

1 hour ago, MadMax said:

If a typical DP unfolds, and the F4 scoops it up, dashes across and touches 2B (with his momentum taking him visibly into the infield), and throws on to 1B, but the R1 still ‘lopes on in to 2B “standing up”, we (NCAA umpires) were directed to call that a FPSR violation.

I believe the instructions are to call the FPSR as both a safety and an interference situation.  Thus, as you described the play, nothing should be the correct call since there was no interference and no safety issue.

[noumpere]

10 hours ago, Kali said:

Maven.  If a player stealing 2nd slides (using a legal slide) into the feet of a fielder next to the bag, since it isn't a force play, we don't call that an out.  If the same exact thing happens on a force play, we DO call him out for violating the FPSL.  Because we don't call the same thing in both situations, this can't be a safety rule.  We are only calling the out on the force play because the runner deprived the fielder the ability to make the play.  That is how this goes logically.

It IS a safety rule. But it needs to balance safety with the needs of the runner to reach the base. So if the contact is in front of or on the base, the runner’s needs ( and the game of baseball) win out. If the slide is to the side of the base, that doesn’t help the runner, so the safety needs win out. 

[Slippery Fish]

I apologize for re-opening this thread after it feels like a consensus was reached, but this is my first year doing a substantive amount of FED games, and I'm trying to make sure I'm crystal clear about the nuances of the slide rules.

Specifically, my reading of the rules tells me that a runner can (with many exceptions) slide at a fielder on a tag play, and I want to make sure I'm correct about that.

The situation that comes to my mind is R1, less than 2 outs, and a base hit to right field. R1 gets aggressive and tries to reach 3B. The throw from F9 beats him by a couple of steps, but pulls F5 to his right (i.e. between 3B and home). R1 elects to slide to the side of the bag where F5 is standing, possibly to break up any play on the BR, and completes an otherwise legal slide (i.e. one leg and buttock on the ground, close enough to reach the bag with his hand, no cross body, no cleats up etc). He comes into contact with F5 who either cannot complete the tag or is hindered from making a play on the BR.

Am I correct to say that, by rule, this is a legal slide? My gut tells my that I'm wrong about this conclusion, but unless you judge MC or that the runner was trying to injure the fielder rather than just make his life difficult, I'm struggling to build a case that it's illegal. Is there just an assumption that in most cases the runner will slide to the other side of the bag like @noumpere mentioned? Or that tag plays are too unpredictable to force the runner to slide directly at the bag as @Velho speculated?

[JSam21]

13 hours ago, Slippery Fish said:

I apologize for re-opening this thread after it feels like a consensus was reached, but this is my first year doing a substantive amount of FED games, and I'm trying to make sure I'm crystal clear about the nuances of the slide rules.

Specifically, my reading of the rules tells me that a runner can (with many exceptions) slide at a fielder on a tag play, and I want to make sure I'm correct about that.

The situation that comes to my mind is R1, less than 2 outs, and a base hit to right field. R1 gets aggressive and tries to reach 3B. The throw from F9 beats him by a couple of steps, but pulls F5 to his right (i.e. between 3B and home). R1 elects to slide to the side of the bag where F5 is standing, possibly to break up any play on the BR, and completes an otherwise legal slide (i.e. one leg and buttock on the ground, close enough to reach the bag with his hand, no cross body, no cleats up etc). He comes into contact with F5 who either cannot complete the tag or is hindered from making a play on the BR.

Am I correct to say that, by rule, this is a legal slide? My gut tells my that I'm wrong about this conclusion, but unless you judge MC or that the runner was trying to injure the fielder rather than just make his life difficult, I'm struggling to build a case that it's illegal. Is there just an assumption that in most cases the runner will slide to the other side of the bag like @noumpere mentioned? Or that tag plays are too unpredictable to force the runner to slide directly at the bag as @Velho speculated?

Yes this would be a legal slide. The sliding directly between the two bases only applies to force play situations.

 

[Kali]

OK, to sum all this up:  This was a question about Fed rules so the NCAA interpretations don't really come into this as they have a different rule anyway.  Also, we weren't talking about Malicious Contact but legal slides into the base.  I think we've boiled this down to:

1) There are two slide rule situations, one for force plays and another for non-force plays.

2) The difference between the two is that in the force play situation we protect the fielder standing to the side of the base from contact by a runner executing an otherwise legal slide and in non-force situations we don't.  Note: During a force play, the fielder need only touch the base with his foot while in any other case the fielder must tag the runner before they reach the base, meaning that the fielders are more likely to be in the area next to the base during a non-force play.  As a result we are not protecting the fielder in the case they will most likely be contacted.

3) Because we do not protect the fielder in all situations, we really can't say this part of the slide rule is a safety rule.  Instead, we are protecting the fielder so they can make a follow-on play.

4) While no rule is "petty", since this isn't a matter of protecting the safety of the players, before calling this one, we have to be reasonably sure there is a follow-on play to be made.

[noumpere]

I don't think 3 and 4 follow logically.