Interruption? Brief pause?

[Richvee]

NCAA. What do you have?  
How about FED? 
 

https://www.facebook.com/share/v/1NLrrDm3mY/?mibextid=wwXIfr

[Replacematt]

3 minutes ago, Richvee said:

NCAA. What do you have?  
How about FED? 
 

https://www.facebook.com/share/v/1NLrrDm3mY/?mibextid=wwXIfr

Many Facebook groups don't have their content available outside the group. Do you have a different link?

[Richvee]

1 minute ago, Replacematt said:

Many Facebook groups don't have their content available outside the group. Do you have a different link?

I wish I did. I am tech challenged. 

[Richvee]

https://www.facebook.com/greg.spencer.9/videos/1309587413644904/?idorvanity=235822346448916

[johnnyg08]

Here we go
 

 

[Replacematt]

NCAA: Legal (Bruns, 4/29/19.) A pitcher can "pause with his free foot in the air before completing delivery." "A pause does not include pumping his leg down and back up..."

So, the way I read it, this is legal--he did nothing other than a windup with a pause in the middle. This interpretation is to clarify 9-1-a Note 2, which allows brief pauses.

FED, by the book, is illegal (9-1-2.) There is no allowance for pausing during delivery.

[BLWizzRanger]

Can I take this a step further?  NFHS.  If you are doing 3 man and you are in 'A', do you call the balk? you can't see the hands are/are not moving from 'A'.

 

[JSam21]

7 hours ago, Replacematt said:

NCAA: Legal (Bruns, 4/29/19.) A pitcher can "pause with his free foot in the air before completing delivery." "A pause does not include pumping his leg down and back up..."

So, the way I read it, this is legal--he did nothing other than a windup with a pause in the middle. This interpretation is to clarify 9-1-a Note 2, which allows brief pauses.

FED, by the book, is illegal (9-1-2.) There is no allowance for pausing during delivery.

I would say that this isn’t a pause, this is a full stop. I’m wondering if we are going to get a memo today or tomorrow 

[Replacematt]

45 minutes ago, BLWizzRanger said:

Can I take this a step further?  NFHS.  If you are doing 3 man and you are in 'A', do you call the balk? you can't see the hands are/are not moving from 'A'.

 

Nope. There are two other umpires that can see that better than I can.

It's no different than calling a balk for a start/stop in the set from behind the pitcher's back. When there's two other umpires that can see it and don't call it, I'm going with they can see something I can't.

I think the principle applies of any situation, regardless of number of umpires or rulebook, where there is joint responsibility for a particular kind of call, whether it's balks, interference, obstruction, etc.--if you are in the best position to see a violation and you have one, call it. If you are not in the best position to observe, if you have a definitive observation of a violation, call it. 

[The Man in Blue]

I know Matt doesn't like it when I pick these nits as we have philosophical differences in the way we approach things . . . 

8 hours ago, Replacematt said:

NCAA: Legal (Bruns, 4/29/19.) A pitcher can "pause with his free foot in the air before completing delivery." "A pause does not include pumping his leg down and back up..."

So, the way I read it, this is legal--he did nothing other than a windup with a pause in the middle. This interpretation is to clarify 9-1-a Note 2, which allows brief pauses.

FED, by the book, is illegal (9-1-2.) There is no allowance for pausing during delivery.

How does Randy justify this when it is in direct contradiction with the wording of the rule?  ( " . . . without interruption or alteration.")  A pause is an interruption, except when we arbitrarily change the meaning of words to make things convenient.

When you pause the movie, what do you do?

When you pause while speaking, what do you do?

 

17 minutes ago, Replacematt said:

Nope. There are two other umpires that can see that better than I can.

It's no different than calling a balk for a start/stop in the set from behind the pitcher's back. When there's two other umpires that can see it and don't call it, I'm going with they can see something I can't.

I think the principle applies of any situation, regardless of number of umpires or rulebook, where there is joint responsibility for a particular kind of call, whether it's balks, interference, obstruction, etc.--if you are in the best position to see a violation and you have one, call it. If you are not in the best position to observe, if you have a definitive observation of a violation, call it. 

 

I agree with this concept, but offer a word of caution to younger umpires.  Do not accept "no calls" as "no violations."  If you think you have something, but don't feel you have a good enough look, find out from your partner why they aren't calling it.  They may be missing it or they may have a good reason.

It is never OK to say, "Well, yeah, I had him illegal all day long, but my partner never called it."

[jimurrayalterego]

37 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

I know Matt doesn't like it when I pick these nits as we have philosophical differences in the way we approach things . . . 

How does Randy justify this when it is in direct contradiction with the wording of the rule?  ( " . . . without interruption or alteration.")  A pause is an interruption, except when we arbitrarily change the meaning of words to make things convenient.

When you pause the movie, what do you do?

When you pause while speaking, what do you do?

 

NCAA allows it:

"Note 2: A pitcher may pause during the delivery from the windup position without penalty."

[Richvee]

9 hours ago, Replacematt said:

So, the way I read it, this is legal--he did nothing other than a windup with a pause in the middle

 

1 hour ago, JSam21 said:

I would say that this isn’t a pause, this is a full stop.

Exactly why I think we need an official interp. 

 

1 hour ago, JSam21 said:

NCAA: Legal (Bruns, 4/29/19.) A pitcher can "pause with his free foot in the air before completing delivery." "A pause does not include pumping his leg down and back up...

Yes, 2019...2025 we have a change in rulebook change in terminology...

9-1-a(8) note 2 A pitcher may pause briefly during the delivery from the windup position without penalty.  

I don't think this is a brief pause. And without some guidance, it's completely up to whoever sees it as to  what they determine to be brief. 

[The Man in Blue]

21 minutes ago, jimurrayalterego said:

NCAA allows it:

"Note 2: A pitcher may pause during the delivery from the windup position without penalty."

Fair enough, thank you!  I should have read a little further (and I need to download the new book).  I'll change my focus then . . . How does NCAA . . . 😁

A pause is an interruption.

Perhaps a clarification on what they intended?  Purely my speculation here . . . My thought is that they were trying to refer to the step back and change in direction, not once forward motion began.  However, they don't say that, so this is what you get.

Would you allow a pitcher to get all the way to his front foot landing without releasing the ball? 

With his body momentum moving forward in what would typically be the delivery, he instead takes a large step forward, plants his front foot, pauses, and then throws with his arm and no body follow through.

What if after the pause, he then pushes off with his back foot, launching his body forward, essentially using the front foot as a leverage point?

[Richvee]

47 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

My thought is that they were trying to refer to the step back and change in direction, not once forward motion began.

I agree and the've been chasing their tail on this ruling ever since. 

In a PDF from our rules interpreter, he lays out pre game check list,  pitch clock rules reference card, pitch clock crew mechanics, replay, substance checks, and double 1B rules/mechanics in a well laid out, easy to read format. In it, he says...

"From the windup position, once the delivery to the plate has begun, a PAUSE is legal, a PUMP is not"

That said, my mind keeps going back to "A pitcher may pause briefly" 

[Replacematt]

2 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

My thought is that they were trying to refer to the step back and change in direction, not once forward motion began.  However, they don't say that, so this is what you get.

This is not the rationale.

The interpretation (one page long, and I don't have it in pdf so it's a pain to copy) states as examples pausing after the adjustment step or with the foot in the air before completing delivery. 

[Richvee]

23 minutes ago, Replacematt said:

This is not the rationale.

The interpretation (one page long, and I don't have it in pdf so it's a pain to copy) states as examples pausing after the adjustment step or with the foot in the air before completing delivery. 

Maybe I'm miss remembering. When this rule was originally added, I remember, either in an  on line clinic, or live pre season clinic,  somewhere, someone said, "This is to allow the "Japanese windup", where a pitcher will pause after taking a step back before proceeding to deliver the pitch. ". Only later did interps start popping up about "during the delivery" 

So I do believe this was added for the pause after rocking back and before delivering, and it has evolved through interps. Similar to the "batter being ready and alert to the pitcher" had evolved though interps before there was actual rule language in the book. 

[Replacematt]

37 minutes ago, Richvee said:

Maybe I'm miss remembering. When this rule was originally added, I remember, either in an  on line clinic, or live pre season clinic,  somewhere, someone said, "This is to allow the "Japanese windup", where a pitcher will pause after taking a step back before proceeding to deliver the pitch. ". Only later did interps start popping up about "during the delivery" 

So I do believe this was added for the pause after rocking back and before delivering, and it has evolved through interps. Similar to the "batter being ready and alert to the pitcher" had evolved though interps before there was actual rule language in the book. 

I was talking about what the rationale for the interpretation was, which makes it clear that the interpretation is not intended to limit the pause to the initial rocking motion or step.

But since you've got me curious about the evolution of this note...

2011: Note 2 (then A.R. 2,) permitting a pause, was added: "A pitcher may pause during his delivery from the windup position without penalty." I was not actively umpiring college baseball at that time, so I don't have any first-hand recollection of any color surrounding its adoption.

2019: The interpretation I referenced above was published.

2025: The word "briefly" is added.

There are likely other publications in the interim that I have not found.
 

[Richvee]

I did t realize that note (ar) 2 was that old. Maybe I’m just recalling a conversation with colleagues about the pause. 
 

To be clear, I’m not doubting for a minute that a pause is allowed during the delivery to the plate. My question is when does “a brief pause” become “an interuption”? 

[Replacematt]

27 minutes ago, Richvee said:

I did t realize that note (ar) 2 was that old. Maybe I’m just recalling a conversation with colleagues about the pause. 
 

To be clear, I’m not doubting for a minute that a pause is allowed during the delivery to the plate. My question is when does “a brief pause” become “an interuption”? 

I agree with that question, nor was I doubting you.

Leaving it as simply "pause" is actually easier to officiate. Adding "briefly" makes it subjective. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it; I'll just call it as I see it and we'll all (hopefully) apply the same principle, even if there are some occasions where we may differ on if a pause is brief enough or not.

That is, until they add a definition of "up to one second" which then leads us to having to have stopwatches out during windups...I exaggerate, but am I really?

[Richvee]

I have a little back story to add from this game. 
as one may expect, F1 did this more than just this once, varying pause times. This one being one of the longest if not the longest. 
He also tried this pause with multiple “pumps” or kicks of the leg which were correctly penalized.
Boils down to yours and the crews judgement. 

[Velho]

57 minutes ago, Richvee said:

I have a little back story to add from this game. 

Unrelated but interesting added point: he was gassing 102mph while doing this (per Pitching Ninja)