Confusion over FED NOCSAE stamp requirements for F2s (1-5-4)

[SeeingEyeDog]

Every summer, once the high school season ends I start seeing a few (maybe 3 or 4 over 100 games) catchers attempting to enter the game with two-piece face masks and helmets which don't bear the NOCSAE stamp and never will because NOCSAE is unlikely to ever certify that kind of equipment. I talk to the coach and it's handled one of several ways, we get a catcher of some kind "legally and properly equipped" and the game begins/resumes...

Fast forward to THIS summer...and the issue has reached problematic proportions. I'm addressing this 2 to 3 times a week this summer. I think the "confusion" (in quotations...) is stemming from some travel and showcase leagues' decisions to implement local modifications "permitting" the use of two-piece face mask and helmets. As an umpire, a parent and a baseball enthusiast I'm not a fan of that but, we have it in writing and of course we cover "legally and properly equipped" at the plate meeting. This is then creating "confusion" at the local level when these same players are playing in summer and fall "regular season" leagues where that modification is not in place. So now, I'm getting a bit of [grumble, grumble...I'm a moody teenager who doesn't like being told what to do...], "Hey! It's not even an effing HS school game!" Sigh...

My question to you brothers is...Are any of you seeing this "confusion" about 1-5-4 in your markets? Just curious if this is a local, regional and or national concern...

~Dawg

[BLWizzRanger]

Quite honestly, after high school season, I am not looking for it. Legion, travel, showcase, some with modified NFHS rules, I havent stopped an F2 from using what they want. :shrug

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[The Man in Blue]

“Playing under NFHS rules with these exceptions” is quite different than playing NFHS sanctioned ball.

The tournaments I work have the exception in their rules.  That’s all I need.  In my experience, an HSM is rare outside of scholastic contests.

Can’t even think of the last time I had to correct a situation.  Back when they first changed it, maybe?

[The Man in Blue]

… and another thing (separate thought) …

If we are going to require HSMs, can we start teaching the right way to use them?  No, “get the mask off” does NOT apply.  Catchers should be learning to play in them.

[SeeingEyeDog]

1 hour ago, BLWizzRanger said:

Quite honestly, after high school season, I am not looking for it. Legion, travel, showcase, some with modified NFHS rules, I havent stopped an F2 from using what they want. :shrug

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Hypothetically then...we have an F2 in a summer, non-scholastic game under FED rules playing in that game with a non-NOCSAE helmet and facemask and there is no local modification to this rule. That F2 then sustains a head injury wearing that equipment. The umpires conducted "legally and properly equipped" at the plate meeting. In your opinion, what (if any) is the umpires' liability here?

I'm not accusing anyone of anything. I am not harshing anyone's mellow. I am not an attorney. I'm just having a discussion to try and learn about how the world works...or how we believe the world works...

My feeling is...if we have the local modification in writing...fine. Because then if anyone does get hurt, we can cite the modification. Without something in writing and we have stated we are playing under FED rules, we enforce 1-5-4 as written because we have no fully codified local modification. Additionally, I'd be interested in hearing NFHS' opinion about local leagues creating this local modification. NFHS is not the baseball police, of course...but, I'm guessing they'd find it sub-optimal.

~Dawg

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Hypothetically then...we have an F2 in a summer, non-scholastic game under FED rules playing in that game with a non-NOCSAE helmet and facemask and there is no local modification to this rule. That F2 then sustains a head injury wearing that equipment. The umpires conducted "legally and properly equipped" at the plate meeting. In your opinion, what (if any) is the umpires' liability here?

I'm not accusing anyone of anything. I am not harshing anyone's mellow. I am not an attorney. I'm just having a discussion to try and learn about how the world works...or how we believe the world works...

My feeling is...if we have the local modification in writing...fine. Because then if anyone does get hurt, we can cite the modification. Without something in writing and we have stated we are playing under FED rules, we enforce 1-5-4 as written because we have no fully codified local modification. Additionally, I'd be interested in hearing NFHS' opinion about local leagues creating this local modification. NFHS is not the baseball police, of course...but, I'm guessing they'd find it sub-optimal.

~Dawg

You should do your thing and @BLWizzRanger can do his thing.

[The Man in Blue]

@SeeingEyeDog I agree with what you are saying.  However … 

If the person who contracts me says we are playing NFHS rules, then we are playing NFHS rules as written in the book (and ground rules at the plate meeting which cannot supersede the book).  If the person who contracts me says we have these modifications (insert A, B, C, and D), then we have those modifications.  

If the person running the event wants to allow earless batting helmets or no batting helmets for batters, that is not on us for liability.  We are contracted to call a game under their terms.

We are umpires.  We don’t make the rules.  My liability ends at “Coach, is your team legal and legally equipped?” and then enforcing anything I see that goes against that.  It is not our duty to define legally equipped.

NFHS also has no say over how people use the book they produce.  They only have say over the events that their members sanction.  
 

Yes, there is an element of @MadMax’s “same athlete, different standards” credo.  However, as I said, we don’t create the rules, we are contracted to apply them.

[JonnyCat]

14 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

The umpires conducted "legally and properly equipped" at the plate meeting.

Asking that questions doesn't magically put all the responsibility and liability on you. We only ask that question as a POE for many organizations. We're just double checking, and IMO, it's dumb as hell and not necessary. It's just a reminder to the coaches that their kids need to be properly equipped. That's all. Kind of like reminding them about sportsmanship. Are you going to be liable if a fight breaks out, because you reminded them about sportsmanship?

Now if they respond "no", we probably have an issue that needs to be resolved. As long as they say yes, I don't give a F*#K what happens after that. It's the coaches responsibility, and the governing sports body for the safety of their kids. We're there to enforce the rules. I'll enforce things as necessary depending on the issue.

I still to this day don't understand where this whole "liability" issue comes from. I have yet to find any evidence, lawsuit, or case study, of any umpire being sued because little Billy got hurt using "illegal" equipment. I'm not saying it has never happened, but I've never found any evidence, nor has anyone ever showed me any.

 

[MadMax]

Guys on this thread ( @SeeingEyeDog, @BLWizzRanger, @JonnyCat, @The Man in Blue, et. al.)… I’ve got a very redoubtable insight to post here in regard to this. However, I don’t have the time at this moment to transpose my thoughts and type this all out, without risking losing it all in a buffer refresh. 

It’ll be up this evening. 

[BLWizzRanger]

Hypothetically then...we have an F2 in a summer, non-scholastic game under FED rules playing in that game with a non-NOCSAE helmet and facemask and there is no local modification to this rule. That F2 then sustains a head injury wearing that equipment. The umpires conducted "legally and properly equipped" at the plate meeting. In your opinion, what (if any) is the umpires' liability here?
I'm not accusing anyone of anything. I am not harshing anyone's mellow. I am not an attorney. I'm just having a discussion to try and learn about how the world works...or how we believe the world works...
My feeling is...if we have the local modification in writing...fine. Because then if anyone does get hurt, we can cite the modification. Without something in writing and we have stated we are playing under FED rules, we enforce 1-5-4 as written because we have no fully codified local modification. Additionally, I'd be interested in hearing NFHS' opinion about local leagues creating this local modification. NFHS is not the baseball police, of course...but, I'm guessing they'd find it sub-optimal.
~Dawg

I did have a longer response that got lost during takes... no offense taken though. A good discussion without emotion. I have actually thought more about this while responding than I have ever had while on the field.

We know the tournament orgs (or parents, players) dont really know what is in NFHS rule book and if they cared about this equipment, they would make it a POE on their modifictions or come around to the games to check the players. Because they dont care. They only care when metal spikes are worn on artificial turf because they probably have a damage deposit for the rented fields. Something that costs them money.

With that, there are three decision points before we even take the field that doesnt involve me - player, parent, tournament - that are deciding that if good enough for the pros than it should be good enough for the player. Plus, most likely, the umpire is in approval that his risk is minimum as well because he wears almost the same setup.

NFHS could actually be looking out for teenaged players' safety, but why wouldnt they mandate it for the umpires who are just as involved as the players themselves?

And on another tangent, the only reason we care about NOSCAE stamps on baseballs is because they want quality baseballs on the fields and not cheap ass pleather baseballs from Dick's bargin bin. Why should the umpires care what baseballs are brought on the field, otherwise? So the the ball doesnt spin as fast, travels as far, or goes to mush after two or three hits....I dont care.

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[834k3r]

On 9/21/2024 at 10:18 AM, MadMax said:

Guys on this thread ( @SeeingEyeDog, @BLWizzRanger, @JonnyCat, @The Man in Blue, et. al.)… I’ve got a very redoubtable insight to post here in regard to this. However, I don’t have the time at this moment to transpose my thoughts and type this all out, without risking losing it all in a buffer refresh. 

It’ll be up this evening. 

[SeeingEyeDog]

1 hour ago, 834k3r said:

You know, Beaks...there was this guy who lived on the end of my street growing up. He used to talk a lot about harassing the local wildlife. "Hey I wonder what would happen if I did this..." that sort of thing. Then one summer, he went to visit his Grandmother in Florida for a few weeks and came back without a finger. When we asked him about it he said with still a great deal of surprise, "So, I put my finger in this alligator's mouth? And he bit it right off!"

~Dawg

[834k3r]

2 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

You know, Beaks...there was this guy who lived on the end of my street growing up. He used to talk a lot about harassing the local wildlife. "Hey I wonder what would happen if I did this..." that sort of thing. Then one summer, he went to visit his Grandmother in Florida for a few weeks and came back without a finger. When we asked him about it he said with still a great deal of surprise, "So, I put my finger in this alligator's mouth? And he bit it right off!"

~Dawg

🤣

Oh, I think @MadMax knows I posted that in good fun. I just want to see what he had to say (that he said, you know, he would post Saturday night). Love ya Max!

[The Man in Blue]

7 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

You know, Beaks...there was this guy who lived on the end of my street growing up. He used to talk a lot about harassing the local wildlife. "Hey I wonder what would happen if I did this..." that sort of thing. Then one summer, he went to visit his Grandmother in Florida for a few weeks and came back without a finger. When we asked him about it he said with still a great deal of surprise, "So, I put my finger in this alligator's mouth? And he bit it right off!"

~Dawg

You know, I once knew a pretty blonde girl in my neighborhood who got all preachy and started to tell a story about an alligator and 

 

 

 

Moral of the story: WE AIN'T GOT TIME TO WAIT FOR THIS STORY!  

😉   

[The Man in Blue]

On 9/21/2024 at 10:49 AM, JonnyCat said:

I still to this day don't understand where this whole "liability" issue comes from. I have yet to find any evidence, lawsuit, or case study, of any umpire being sued because little Billy got hurt using "illegal" equipment. I'm not saying it has never happened, but I've never found any evidence, nor has anyone ever showed me any.

 

I have asked the same question and had the same result.  Even became an internet sleuth for a little bit because I actually wanted to write a book or an article on this topic.  I found virtually nothing outside of lawsuits trying to overturn game outcomes based on officials' calls.  Nobody ever provided me with anything either.

[JonnyCat]

11 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

Even became an internet sleuth for a little bit

I did the same thing, too. Came up with nothing.

With a little bit of research, I also debunked the myth that stickers on the helmet can cause degradation of the plastic and weaken it. Please, they come from the factory with stickers.

With almost all the world's information available at your fingertips, it still dumbfounds me how people keep spreading myths. Even with a modicum of research, it takes like 30 seconds to verify or disprove almost anything. BTW, FakeBook is the worst at spreading stupid SH*# that idiots lap up and re-post without ever even thinking to verify the information.

[SeeingEyeDog]

12 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

You know, I once knew a pretty blonde girl in my neighborhood who got all preachy and started to tell a story about an alligator and 

 

 

 

Moral of the story: WE AIN'T GOT TIME TO WAIT FOR THIS STORY!  

😉   

Man...what a smokeshow...

~Dawg

[834k3r]

1 hour ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Man...what a smokeshow...

~Dawg

...but what a head case.