Little league rule of 12 roster players

[BigVic69]

here is the link https://www.littleleague.org/university/articles/mandatory-play-little-league-international-tournament-rule-9/

 

here is the "rule" a little league international team roster is 12 to 14 players.

 

Question: what if the team shows up with less than 12, without an excuse ie illness or injury with documentation?

 

Our district have leagues that continually break this 12 player roster "rule" and have zero repurcusions.

 

The latest was a team that played 3 games with 11 players and the last game had a protest (at 10 pm) that went all the way to Williamsport for a decision and the comback message was "let them play". the team in violation won and then played the next game.

 

So, then why all the stress? Who cares if there is zero penalty, why have a "rule" of 12.

 

The only penatly is an out for a team that fields less than 9, but that is not a point of this discussion.

 

 

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[Velho]

15 minutes ago, BigVic69 said:

here is the "rule" a little league international team roster is 12 to 14 players.

 

It's not a rule. Even the recommendation is not in the rulebook.  It's for District Admins to manage.* From that website link:

"Leagues are strongly encouraged to field a full 12- to 14-player tournament team roster, and District Administrators should very carefully review approving rosters of smaller sizes."

16 minutes ago, BigVic69 said:

The latest was a team that played 3 games with 11 players and the last game had a protest (at 10 pm) that went all the way to Williamsport for a decision and the comback message was "let them play". the team in violation won and then played the next game.

The protest was roster size or something else?

 

* I'm not defending any of this. LL often does things that don't make sense to me. I've learned not to assume rationality where there may be none.

[BigVic69]

The protest was strictly roster size not being 12


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[BigVic69]

Ok so it is up to the DA

But what penalty should be given?

That is the real question,eh?


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[Velho]

58 minutes ago, BigVic69 said:

The protest was strictly roster size not being 12

That would have been done before first pitch. I can understand no one wanting to stick their neck out but that shouldn't have to go all the way to Williamsport.

 

56 minutes ago, BigVic69 said:

But what penalty should be given?

That is the real question,eh?

I hear you and would love to see 12 kids on every roster (14 is too many imo) but failing to follow a recommendation doesn't hurt anyone but the entity (league in his case) not following the recommendation. Enter into evidence: my doctor and my weight.

If an external party (LL International in this case) wants to punish for not following the recommendation, they need to strengthen the culture or make it a rule with a stated penalty.

One thing to note, just in my one league I've seen years where they (legitimately, no shenanigans) can't get enough players - and it's a big league. That alone is a reason not to make it a rule.

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, BigVic69 said:

 

The only penatly is an out for a team that fields less than 9, but that is not a point of this discussion.

 

 

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Where is that penalty in the rules? Regarding roster size I believe it is up to the DA to judge a good reason for having less than 12 and as evidenced above, there are many reasons.

[MadMax]

3 hours ago, BigVic69 said:

So, then why all the stress? Who cares if there is zero penalty, why have a "rule" of 12.

This isn’t the only reason, but it is a legitimate reason, and it’s one that Coach Rich Ives (RIP U-E Member) alluded to several times in his posts – competitive balance. 

The vast majority of teams can’t field a stacked lineup of 12 wallbangers. They might get 5-6 rakers, 4 contact hitters, and 2-3 “best effort” kids. That’s just the travails of being that age. If you can “turn your lineup over”, by having 10-11, instead of 12, you’ll have more opportunities for your hitters to hit… and, conversely (or, more like, congruently) there will be less opportunities for the defense to get outs. 

That’s what the small-diamond game has become. Teams will say they want to give as many players on their roster the chance to play; however, if their chance of winning is increased by having (or, being allowed to) less players, they’ll jump at it. 

[Velho]

19 minutes ago, MadMax said:

That’s what the small-diamond game has become. Teams Little League and some individual leagues (usually the ones that won't be competitive) will say they want to give as many players on their roster the chance to play; however, if their chance most leagues see of winning is increased by having (or, being allowed to) less players, they’ll jump at it. 

FIFY

The extension of that philosophy is the subset of teams that "accidentally" bat Raker Smith instead of Best Effort Smith (though CBO increases the level of difficulty).

[StatsUmp]

3 hours ago, Velho said:

One thing to note, just in my one league I've seen years where they (legitimately, no shenanigans) can't get enough players - and it's a big league. That alone is a reason not to make it a rule.

From what high and middle school coaches have told  me, this seems like an issue all over the country. One such coach told me how that city's summer base ball program has seen a 50% participation drop over the years from kids wanting to focus on elite level travel ball, sports other than baseball, or no sports at all.

Minimum roster sizes sound like a nice ideal, but it's difficult to make them a hard and fast requirement when many teams legitimately can't attract that particular number of players.

[Coach Carl]

The teams roster (i.e the "Eligibility Affidavit") must have at least 12 players unless the District Administrator approves a waiver. 

The team is required to submit a lineup of all players present at the beginning of the game.  The team may add a player who shows up late to the end of the lineup (Manager option).

There is no penalty for showing up with 11 or less except that if a Team, Manager or Coach is found by the Tournament Committee to be disregarding the rule, they are subject to penatlies, including removal, forfeiture of a game or disqualificaton of the team or coaches from the tournament.

I can imagine a team scheming by devising a schedule of when a player is "off".  If you have 8 games in pool play, a team could have a rotation of players miss games (maybe even two at a time so you only have 10 players).  But, if it were to come out that a team was purposefully telling players not to come, I'm sure the Committee would penalize.

This penaly section is under Tournament Rule 9, Section h.

[Jimurray]

31 minutes ago, Coach Carl said:

The teams roster (i.e the "Eligibility Affidavit") must have at least 12 players unless the District Administrator approves a waiver. 

 

Isn't the waiver the DA's signature/approval of the Affidavit? When I helped DAs in the past they would ask the reasons for less than 12 and with local knowledge even grill the coaches about the players available. In the cases I was privy to there were valid reasons given and the DA signed off. He did make a note of the reasons in his own file but there was no "waiver" to file. 

[beerguy55]

I can very easily have 12-14 kids on my roster.  Doesn't mean all of them will be at the diamond.

I understand this is addressed by mandating all players on the roster must bat...but now we're conflating a roster (which is typically seasonal) and a lineup, which is gameday.

The purpose of having a 12 player roster is to ensure you can meet the minimum 9 player lineup.   And it's pretty unreasonable to expect a team to report to every game with their complete roster.   When I was that age, we'd be lucky if we had two or three games all season where every player was at the game.

It's one thing to have the DA approve a roster of 11 players for the entire season...but what if I have an approved roster of 13 and two of them bow at last minute for a game...I now have to get sign off in triplicate to hand in an 11 player roster/lineup??

And I'd say it's even less reasonable to expect the coach to explain the absence of a player from their roster when they hand in an 11 player lineup...as long as players 12, 13 and 14 are sitting in the stands or the parking lot.  

A. the coach doesn't always know the specifics to why a player isn't there

B. the coach may not even have any notice

C. oftentimes it's none of the coach's business why the player isn't there

D. It's always none of the DA's business

 

And, are you complaining if a team shows up with 12 even though their full roster is 14?  The same "day off" shenanigans can occur in that manner.

[Jimurray]

2 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

I can very easily have 12-14 kids on my roster.  Doesn't mean all of them will be at the diamond.

 

 

 

D. It's always none of the DA's business

 

The affidavit is the roster for the tournament. The DA doesn’t care what you show up with but it is his business to get a reason why the coach can’t field a tournament team of 12. Once the coach tells the DA the only player not on the affidavit has problem parents the DA can approve an affidavit with less than 12. 

[Jimurray]

7 hours ago, Velho said:

That would have been done before first pitch. I can understand no one wanting to stick their neck out but that shouldn't have to go all the way to Williamsport.

 

 

It has to go to WP if the coach refuses to accept any ruling from the TD, Section, and Region. Which might be the case in the OP.

[Velho]

8 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

It has to go to WP if the coach refuses to accept any ruling from the TD, Section, and Region. Which might be the case in the OP.

Didn't know that but I'm not surprised that some yay-hoo who knows nothing other than the fact that they're about to lose a children's game can hold everyone hostage for 30(?)+ minutes.

[Jimurray]

1 minute ago, Velho said:

Didn't know that but I'm not surprised that some yay-hoo who knows nothing other than the fact that they're about to lose a children's game can hold everyone hostage for 30(?)+ minutes.

I'm surprised they got a ruling from the tournament committee at 10pm. 

[stevis]

1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

I'm surprised they got a ruling from the tournament committee at 10pm. 

Among Little League umpires, this is colloquially known as "getting the janitor's decision."

[Coach Carl]

17 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Isn't the waiver the DA's signature/approval of the Affidavit? When I helped DAs in the past they would ask the reasons for less than 12 and with local knowledge even grill the coaches about the players available. In the cases I was privy to there were valid reasons given and the DA signed off. He did make a note of the reasons in his own file but there was no "waiver" to file. 

You are correct.  I don't know of any published guidance on what a "justifiable reason" would be.

As it relates to the OP, I don't think you are going to get the commitee to penalize from a protest during the game.  I think this would be more of an after-the-fact investigation that would cause them to take action.