NFHS number of batters on deck

[R.C.]

NFHS rules.  Where does it specifically say how many batters may be outside of the dugout "on deck".  Some teams want to have 2 or 3 prior to the beginning of their half of the inning?  It is a dead ball situation. The opposing coach insists only one may be on deck.

[Velho]

Was just discussed recently but in the context of many players doing it - the rules support disallowing that. Don't know that we settled on the limit being 1 or 2.

(personal comment: glad to see the coach has his team so sorted out that 1 vs 2 on deck batters is what he's worried about with the other team 🙄)

https://umpire-empire.com/topic/80566-multiple-batters-swinging-outside-of-dugout/

[The Man in Blue]

Batter … on deck.  That is all.

It is a “dead ball” situation, however the defense is throwing balls warming up.  Play is dead, those balls are very much live coming at you though.

And no, you may not hold your team caucus out there while they are warming up either.  That is what your dugout is for.

 

Why does this always happen?  (Dueling topic starts)

[MadMax]

48 minutes ago, Velho said:

personal comment: glad to see the coach has his team so sorted out that 1 vs 2 on deck batters is what he's worried about with the other team 🙄

It’s either because: 

1. It’s an intimidation / tribal-warfare tactic, or so he (HC) believes… 
2. His own team has been ~ corrected ~ for it, likely recently, by (an) umpire(s) in the past, and he’s still… sore… from the encounter. 

That’s why sedation dentistry exists. Some people don’t handle correction well; conversely, not every dentist dispenses correction well, either. 🦷 

[Velho]

30 minutes ago, MadMax said:

It’s either because:

Exactly

[R.C.]

So is there a ruling that states the maximum number that may be on deck?

[The Man in Blue]

https://umpire-empire.com/topic/80566-multiple-batters-swinging-outside-of-dugout/

[Velho]

36 minutes ago, R.C. said:

So is there a ruling that states the maximum number that may be on deck?

Go with two. Batter and on-deck batter with both near the on-deck circle. No one else is allowed outside the dugout.

If you really want to get persnickety you could go to one, the batter, since you can't have 2 players safely swinging bats in the 5' diameter "area of their team's on-deck circle".

Sometimes you just have to umpire. I'd pick my battles. (or come do LL - by rule they only get one batter warming up between innings and no on-deck batters 😁).

 

SECTION 3 BENCH AND FIELD CONDUCT

ART. 1 . . . A coach, player, substitute, attendant or other bench personnel shall not:

i. be outside the designated dugout (bench) or bullpen area if not a batter, runner, on-deck batter, in the coach 's box or one of the nine players on defense;

 

Plus , also under Rule 3,

ART. 3 ... Players loosening up to bat shall remain in the area of their team's on-deck circle while the pitcher is warming up. (1-2-3)
PENALTY: The umpire shall issue a team warning to the coach of the team involved. The next offender on that team shall be ejected.

[johnnyg08]

Live ball scenarios: 1

Dead ball scenarios: 2

Unfortunately the rules to do not quantify. Many times "player" or "member" is mentioned which is singular. 

Rules: 3-2-3 & 3-3-1-i

Trying to eliminate this: 

 

[Tborze]

On 5/7/2024 at 7:39 AM, johnnyg08 said:

Live ball scenarios: 1

Dead ball scenarios: 2

Unfortunately the rules to do not quantify. Many times "player" or "member" is mentioned which is singular. 

Rules: 3-2-3 & 3-3-1-i

Trying to eliminate this: 

 

3.3.1 CCC

During a live ball 

[Jimurray]

17 minutes ago, Tborze said:

3.3.1 CCC

During a live ball 

I think 3.3.1 emphasizes that for a HR, 3-1-a is not applicable. I use 3-1-i to limit on deck batters but allow other warmups such as throws or sprints as allowed in caseplay 3.3.1 DDD. 3-1-i does not reference live or dead ball.

[Velho]

24 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

I use 3-1-i to limit on deck batters but allow other warmups such as throws or sprints as allowed in caseplay 3.3.1 DDD.

Tangent:

Brings me back to how softball is different. I've brought up before that during pitcher visits I've seen softball bring out multiple coaches and have 2-3 separate discussion (one with pitcher catcher, another with infielders for example).

Last weekend we went to Stanford-Oregon game and both teams regularly had bench players playing catch in between innings. Most of their bench players. 6-10 players not in the lineup. See picture of the RF line below.

Another one, which I've also seen in youth softball, is F5 taking between inning grounder from F3 near the on-deck circle. Picture below. I don't get this one at all.

[Tborze]

5 hours ago, Jimurray said:

I think 3.3.1 emphasizes that for a HR, 3-1-a is not applicable. I use 3-1-i to limit on deck batters but allow other warmups such as throws or sprints as allowed in caseplay 3.3.1 DDD. 3-1-i does not reference live or dead ball.

You have to admit I tried

My argument would be, why would they emphasize the fact by underlining during a live ball?  I would argue they are addressing rule 3-1-i as you mentioned to differentiate between live/dead ball?

That’s what I think. 
 

How bout all JV players jogging to the OF fence to stay loose between innings

Do we want to be “that guy”?

[Jimurray]

21 minutes ago, Tborze said:

You have to admit I tried

My argument would be, why would they emphasize the fact by underlining during a live ball?  I would argue they are addressing rule 3-1-i as you mentioned to differentiate between live/dead ball?

That’s what I think. 
 

How bout all JV players jogging to the OF fence to stay loose between innings

Do we want to be “that guy”?

You and me can both argue but there is enough leeway that we both can use. I'm using 3-1-i to say 2 outside between innings to the batters. Nobody has ever asked me why and they slink back to the dugout. I'm not birddogging who's there and 3 might not get my notice. Everybody jogging to the fence is excused by 3.3.1 DDD which shouldn't be needed if 3-3-i only applied to a live ball. The outside the dugout is not the issue. It's the subtle interplay between batters swinging a bat and pitchers warming up. Do you have a limit and where can they stand besides near the on deck circle while trying to clock each other.

[Tborze]

2 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

You and me can both argue but there is enough leeway that we both can use. I'm using 3-1-i to say 2 outside between innings to the batters. Nobody has ever asked me why and they slink back to the dugout. I'm not birddogging who's there and 3 might not get my notice. Everybody jogging to the fence is excused by 3.3.1 DDD which shouldn't be needed if 3-3-i only applied to a live ball. The outside the dugout is not the issue. It's the subtle interplay between batters swinging a bat and pitchers warming up. Do you have a limit and where can they stand besides near the on deck circle while trying to clock each other.

Where is the coaches responsibility?

To be honest, I’m tired of being FED’s puppet!  Maybe I’m becoming cynical over the years, but if FED doesn’t want to clarify it, which I think they tried to sneak it in, then I’m tired of doing the coaches job to make sure his players are safe!  If he thinks it’s safe who am I to argue?  And I believe the wording in the rules confirm it!  Is it a reach?  Maybe. 

As a man, player, husband, parent, coach, official and human, I know what “safety” is. 
 

Is it a safety issue with players running between innings without helmets running down the lines while balls are being thrown everywhere? Yes! What is the rule against that?  You say there is none  

In 32 yrs never had a problem with this  

Just saying!

I do appreciate your input and expertise!  

 

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, Tborze said:

Where is the coaches responsibility?

To be honest, I’m tired of being FED’s puppet!  Maybe I’m becoming cynical over the years, but if FED doesn’t want to clarify it, which I think they tried to sneak it in, then I’m tired of doing the coaches job to make sure his players are safe!  If he thinks it’s safe who am I to argue?  And I believe the wording in the rules confirm it!  Is it a reach?  Maybe. 

As a man, player, husband, parent, coach, official and human, I know what “safety” is. 
 

Is it a safety issue with players running between innings without helmets running down the lines while balls are being thrown everywhere? Yes! What is the rule against that?  You say there is none  

In 32 yrs never had a problem with this  

Just saying!

I do appreciate your input and expertise!  

 

It's not safety. The clocking reference was to cite the rule. They do not congregate around the on deck circle which, would then give you a cite to put them into the dugout. But what is this? 3, 4, 5, 6, 7..... How many do or would you allow? FEd doesn't clarify it and I'm not sure OBR or NCAA have a cite but you don't see more than 2 or 3. If you are letting a gaggle of batters out between innings it does not look good.

[Tborze]

2 hours ago, Jimurray said:

It's not safety. The clocking reference was to cite the rule. They do not congregate around the on deck circle which, would then give you a cite to put them into the dugout. But what is this? 3, 4, 5, 6, 7..... How many do or would you allow? FEd doesn't clarify it and I'm not sure OBR or NCAA have a cite but you don't see more than 2 or 3. If you are letting a gaggle of batters out between innings it does not look good.

When and where does this ever happen between innings?  I was under the assumption this was before the game during the V teams at bat. This is the only time I have witnessed multiple players outside the dugout. 

If this was happening every inning, I would agree with you. 

[BLWizzRanger]

7 hours ago, Tborze said:

When and where does this ever happen between innings?  I was under the assumption this was before the game during the V teams at bat. This is the only time I have witnessed multiple players outside the dugout. 

If this was happening every inning, I would agree with you. 

I am on the fence on this whole discussion... but, I have seen multiple instances in travel ball where the bench empties to get swings when a new pitcher is inserted.  That! I have put a stop to.

[johnnyg08]

On 5/9/2024 at 12:23 AM, Tborze said:

When and where does this ever happen between innings?  I was under the assumption this was before the game during the V teams at bat. This is the only time I have witnessed multiple players outside the dugout. 

If this was happening every inning, I would agree with you. 

In our area we see it in the first inning and during pitching changes. 

[johnnyg08]

On 5/8/2024 at 1:54 PM, Tborze said:

3.3.1 CCC

During a live ball 

Yep...I'll add that one to the library of rules/screenshots around this one. Thanks