Correcting a baserunning error after an award - what's the final award?

[beerguy55]

This question came up in another thread, but may have got lost in the other elements of the conversation.

OBR

Scenario 1 - R1 runs on a fly ball and rounds second base...OF then makes the catch and throws the ball, which goes out of play.   The runner is awarded home.

Scenario 2 - B/R hits deep, misses first, rounds second base, and then OF throws the ball, which goes out of play.  The runner is awarded home.

MLBUM rules the runner may correct their error, as long as they don't touch third base before doing so.

In both scenarios, after the ball goes out of play, the runner properly retouches second and then first to correct their base running error.

MLBUM specifically mentions Scenario 1, and rules that the award changes to third base.

Does the award also "reset" to third base in Scenario 2, or does it remain home base?

 

[BLWizzRanger]

43 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

This question came up in another thread, but may have got lost in the other elements of the conversation.

OBR

Scenario 1 - R1 runs on a fly ball and rounds second base...OF then makes the catch and throws the ball, which goes out of play.   The runner is awarded home.

Scenario 2 - B/R hits deep, misses first, rounds second base, and then OF throws the ball, which goes out of play.  The runner is awarded home.

MLBUM rules the runner may correct their error, as long as they don't touch third base before doing so.

In both scenarios, after the ball goes out of play, the runner properly retouches second and then first to correct their base running error.

MLBUM specifically mentions Scenario 1, and rules that the award changes to third base.

Does the award also "reset" to third base in Scenario 2, or does it remain home base?

 

I was following the other thread and saw you post this here.  I don't want to confuse or put more burden on these situations, but, lets not forget that the 'last time by' rule would still be applicable, would it not?

[TOMUIC]

You know what my answer will be, so let’s wait to see what others have to say, lol

[beerguy55]

10 minutes ago, BLWizzRanger said:

I was following the other thread and saw you post this here.  I don't want to confuse or put more burden on these situations, but, lets not forget that the 'last time by' rule would still be applicable, would it not?

Not sure what you mean...runner didn't miss any other bases.  They properly touched and retouched second when correcting the error at first.  Is "last time by" relevant to placement of an award?

[TOMUIC]

We are waiting to hear other members’ answers  to what the award is, last time by is not even pertinent here.

[Velho]

2 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

OBR

Scenario 1 - R1 runs on a fly ball and rounds second base...OF then makes the catch and throws the ball, which goes out of play.   The runner is awarded home.

Scenario 2 - B/R hits deep, misses first, rounds second base, and then OF throws the ball, which goes out of play.  The runner is awarded home.

MLBUM rules the runner may correct their error, as long as they don't touch third base before doing so.

In both scenarios, after the ball goes out of play, the runner properly retouches second and then first to correct their base running error.

MLBUM specifically mentions Scenario 1, and rules that the award changes to third base.

Does the award also "reset" to third base in Scenario 2, or does it remain home base?

I'll jump...

Scenario 2 award is third base.

BR vs R1 isn't a significant enough change in facts & circumstance to not apply the case play.

[Senor Azul]

From the 2013 Wendelstedt RIM (p. 141):

Historical Reference:  Until the merger of the AL and NL umpire staffs, this was one of the interpretations that were ruled differently. American League umpires would initially award the runner from his original base. The National League felt this would be coaching the defense, and would award from the runner's position on the field. If/when the runner returned, then his award would be from his original base. When interpretations were merged, the NL won out.

 

When a runner, who has not legally tagged up from his original base after a fly ball is caught by an outfielder, is awarded bases on a ball thrown out of play, his award shall be from his position at the time of the throw. However, if the runner in violation returns to his original base after the ball is dead in order to tag-up properly, the umpire will then change his award from the time of the pitch.

[TOMUIC]

The question on the table does not refer to the runner’s award when required to return to a base after a caught flyball. The question is if the runner MISSES A BASE, and  the ball is thrown out of play and he returns and touches the MISSED BASE, IS THE AWARD MADE FROM THE MISSED BASE OR FROM HIS LOCATION AT THE TIME THE ERRANT THROW WAS RELEASED?

THE CORRECT ANSWER IS TOT or TOP (extremely rare occurrence)

THE MISSED  BASE HAS ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING ON THE BASERUNNER’S AWARD RESULTING FROM THE THROW THAT WENT OUT OF PLAY!!

 

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, Senor Azul said:

From the 2013 Wendelstedt RIM (p. 141):

Historical Reference:  Until the merger of the AL and NL umpire staffs, this was one of the interpretations that were ruled differently. American League umpires would initially award the runner from his original base. The National League felt this would be coaching the defense, and would award from the runner's position on the field. If/when the runner returned, then his award would be from his original base. When interpretations were merged, the NL won out.

 

When a runner, who has not legally tagged up from his original base after a fly ball is caught by an outfielder, is awarded bases on a ball thrown out of play, his award shall be from his position at the time of the throw. However, if the runner in violation returns to his original base after the ball is dead in order to tag-up properly, the umpire will then change his award from the time of the pitch.

Doesn't answer the question asked.

There is already consensus and understanding on how this is treated in a left early scenario.

The question is if a missed based scenario is treated the same or differently.

[BLWizzRanger]

Not sure what you mean...runner didn't miss any other bases.  They properly touched and retouched second when correcting the error at first.  Is "last time by" relevant to placement of an award?

I was just thinking that with other dead ball situations, the runner returns to their base across the infield - meaning they ARENT retouching 2nd to get back to first. Say R1 is stealing and sees a shot down RFL they round second in case it is fair.

They definitely dont think of touching the bases back in order in this situation (nor do they have to). That action could easily be done on the dead balls, since it is a dead ball, in the situation you are asking about.

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[The Man in Blue]

Base awards should be considered from the last legally acquired base.  If a runner misses a base, it is not legally acquired.

If he returns and corrects that, it is now his last legally acquired base as he cannot advance (sans award) during a dead ball.  A runner is not allowed to "fix and come back."

If he chooses NOT to return and correct the error, he can accept the award from his position on the bases ("presumed last base legally acquired" if you will), but then he is subject to a valid and legal appeal as he did not legally acquire the missed base.

 

Is my way of thinking about this over-simplified?  (I am legitimately asking in case I am missing something.)

[TOMUIC]

The OBR do not include a statement such as the following:

If a runner returns  to touch a missed base (after being awarded additional bases) he may do so ,according to the rules, and then his award will be made from the missed base.

if the intention of the rulebook was to make the award (to the runner) from the base missed , it would clearly say so, just  as it does with regard to a runner who must return to a base (left too soon) on a caught fly ball!

let me end with the following play, which illustrates all aspects of this rule along with LTB

Batter gets long hit, misses first base, continues on and is halfway to third when  an errant throw is released. By the time the ball goes out of play the batter-runner is 20 feet past third base.The BR stops BEFORE touching the plate, retouches third, but fails to touch second as he returns and touches first, then touches second, third and home.

RULING: 1) The correct award is home plate.

                2) The runner has legally corrected his mistake (of missing first base) because when the ball became dead his next base (or base beyond) was home plate.

                 3) Finally, his failure to touch second base  while returning to first was corrected under the theory of “last time by”

 

 

 

[beerguy55]

6 hours ago, TOMUIC said:

if the intention of the rulebook was to make the award (to the runner) from the base missed , it would clearly say so, just  as it does with regard to a runner who must return to a base (left too soon) on a caught fly ball!

Based on the OBR, and all its errors, conflicts, grammatical problems, and contextual issues, which is why we need case plays, interpretations and an umpire's manual,  this is not an assumption I would ever make.

 

21 hours ago, BLWizzRanger said:

They definitely dont think of touching the bases back in order in this situation (nor do they have to). That action could easily be done on the dead balls, since it is a dead ball, in the situation you are asking about.

So you're thinking that R1 leaves early, rounds second, and after the dead ball, just runs straight to first, retouches, and then takes his award by touching second and advancing to third.  Which would be fine, IMO, and not change anything about the award.  It would certainly look weird, but last time by would apply and would negate the missed base on the return.

 

7 hours ago, TOMUIC said:

Batter gets long hit, misses first base, continues on and is halfway to third when  an errant throw is released. By the time the ball goes out of play the batter-runner is 20 feet past third base.The BR stops BEFORE touching the plate, retouches third, but fails to touch second as he returns and touches first, then touches second, third and home.

RULING: 1) The correct award is home plate.

                2) The runner has legally corrected his mistake (of missing first base) because when the ball became dead his next base (or base beyond) was home plate.

                 3) Finally, his failure to touch second base  while returning to first was corrected under the theory of “last time by”

Be sure to clarify that this is not an official ruling documented anywhere, but is an example created by you.

[Velho]

21 hours ago, BLWizzRanger said:

I was just thinking that with other dead ball situations, the runner returns to their base across the infield - meaning they ARENT retouching 2nd to get back to first. Say R1 is stealing and sees a shot down RFL they round second in case it is fair.

They definitely dont think of touching the bases back in order in this situation (nor do they have to). That action could easily be done on the dead balls, since it is a dead ball, in the situation you are asking about.

I agree though, since that scenario is explicitly covered (with not necessary to touch in reverse order while returning to original base) in 5.06(b)(1) vs the rest of 5.06(b), I personally don't think it applies. Especially given 5.06(b)(4)(i) comment.

 

sigh.. OBR is a mess. For example, that comment about retouch and award from original base is under the (i) subsection that is addressing pitch lodged by ump/catcher.

[BigBlue4u]

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

By the time the ball goes out of play the batter-runner is 20 feet past third base

Where was the runner at the time of the throw?

[noumpere]

51 minutes ago, BigBlue4u said:

Where was the runner at the time of the throw?

While that is used to determine the award, it is NOT used to determine whether it's too late for a runner to correct a previous mistake.

 

The question is whether the wording ( "a runner who leaves too early can return") is an EXAMPLE that can be used in other similar situations, or is a SPECIFIC declaration to be used only when a runner leaves early and not when a runner misses a base.

 

None of us here has the ability / authority to decide that.

[The Man in Blue]

4 hours ago, noumpere said:

The question is whether the wording ( "a runner who leaves too early can return") is an EXAMPLE that can be used in other similar situations, or is a SPECIFIC declaration to be used only when a runner leaves early and not when a runner misses a base.

None of us here has the ability / authority to decide that.

As an English teacher and somebody who scored a perfect score on the English portion of his ACT, I will say that "a runner who leaves too early" is a very specific designation that does not apply to a runner who did not leave too early.  (I am both prone to being wrong and making mistakes, though.)

6 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Based on the OBR, and all its errors, conflicts, grammatical problems, and contextual issues, which is why we need case plays, interpretations and an umpire's manual,  this is not an assumption I would ever make.

Just want to point out . . . case plays, interpretations, and un umpire's manual which are written and/or approved by the same people who put out the OBR and all its errors, conflicts grammatical problems, and contextual issues.  😋

(Just another jab on my crusade to get umpires to use those to help them think through the rules, not to lean on as crutches.)  

[BLWizzRanger]

5 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

So you're thinking that R1 leaves early, rounds second, and after the dead ball, just runs straight to first, retouches, and then takes his award by touching second and advancing to third.  Which would be fine, IMO, and not change anything about the award.  It would certainly look weird, but last time by would apply and would negate the missed base on the return.

 

Wait a minute.... Maybe I am thinking NCAA, but, isn't there a case play where the runner has to be near the base, if they don't touch it, to be considered eligible for 'last time by'?  They couldn't cross the mound and expect the 'last time by' to be honored... at least during a live ball.  But, during a dead ball, the BR is allowed to go back and retouch the bases, and, they can start at the missed/untouched base? In other words, they don't need to reverse touch the bases (say 3rd/2nd/1st) and then touch them in order to be legit? Not to mention allowing the runner to possibly touching a base while it is officially occupied by another runner or possibly having a 'pass runner' during a dead ball correction.  Thank goodness this is a unicorn play.

 

[BigBlue4u]

22 hours ago, noumpere said:

he question is whether the wording ( "a runner who leaves too early can return") is an EXAMPLE that can be used in other similar situations, or is a SPECIFIC declaration to be used only when a runner leaves early and not when a runner misses a base.

 

None of us here has the ability / authority to decide that.

We may be talking about two different things.  A runner who misses a base or leaves too early may correct his mistake provided he has not touched the next base and the ball becomes dead. (8-2-6-d-1 HS)

[noumpere]

35 minutes ago, BigBlue4u said:

We may be talking about two different things.  A runner who misses a base or leaves too early may correct his mistake provided he has not touched the next base and the ball becomes dead. (8-2-6-d-1 HS)

The question is for OBR, where the letter "leaves too early" is covered and the former ("misses a base") is not discussed either way.

[beerguy55]

On 3/2/2024 at 3:15 PM, BigBlue4u said:

Where was the runner at the time of the throw?

You are attributing quotes to me that I did not make

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, BigBlue4u said:

We may be talking about two different things.  A runner who misses a base or leaves too early may correct his mistake provided he has not touched the next base and the ball becomes dead. (8-2-6-d-1 HS)

You're missing the gist of the question.

Not to mention you're referencing FED - this is an OBR discussion - mainly because in FED the runner may not correct his error once he's past the next base when the ball goes out of play...whereas in OBR you are allowed as long as you don't touch the next base from where you are AFTER the ball goes out of play.

The question is whether or not the award (which is determined by TOT) is "reset" when you correct the error in BOTH a missed base or a left early situation.

THe MLBUM specifically says it does for left early.  The question is whether or not the award also resets for a missed base, or if the original award remains.

[The Man in Blue]

2 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

You're missing the gist of the question.

Not to mention you're referencing FED - this is an OBR discussion - mainly because in FED the runner may not correct his error once he's past the next base when the ball goes out of play...whereas in OBR you are allowed as long as you don't touch the next base from where you are AFTER the ball goes out of play.

The question is whether or not the award (which is determined by TOT) is "reset" when you correct the error in BOTH a missed base or a left early situation.

THe MLBUM specifically says it does for left early.  The question is whether or not the award also resets for a missed base, or if the original award remains.

I am still going with "yes" as the runner has not legally acquired the missed base.  When he goes back during a dead ball, he does not go back to "RETOUCH" as many are erroneously calling it.  He simply goes back to the missed base.  Period.  That's it.  That is where he must stay.  He cannot advance.  Once he has legally acquired the base, then you can award bases from the last base he has legally acquired (i.e., the one he missed).

If he does NOT go back and continues to advance on the base award, you allow him to do so, just as you would during a live ball play.  We don't point out a missed base, not to benefit the defense and not to benefit the offense. Once the ball is back in play, if the defense appeals, you call him out on the appeal.  If the defense doesn't appeal, the play stands, just as it would in a live ball play.

 

[beerguy55]

11 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

When he goes back during a dead ball, he does not go back to "RETOUCH" as many are erroneously calling it.

I think all references to "retouch" are about second base, on the way back to correcting the missed base.

[beerguy55]

12 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

He simply goes back to the missed base.  Period.  That's it.  That is where he must stay.  He cannot advance.  Once he has legally acquired the base, then you can award bases from the last base he has legally acquired (i.e., the one he missed).

This goes back to the position I proposed on the other thread.  The runner can correct his error during the dead ball, but can't also return to second base.  I think these principles allow for the most consistent (and fair) approach - dead balls without awards, dead balls with awards, missed bases, left early.