TOMUIC

Good for you. That is what the problem is with the OBR, the award on the missed base (on an overthrow) and this case of obstruction is not clearly spelled out, and yet the theory is that the award is made from the last base legally touched, (which means the base they go back and correct the mistake at). So basically it seems to be still up in the air.

You are referring to the play in which a runner returns to a base left too soon on a caught fly ball. His original award based on his location may be changed when he goes back to retouch the base left to soon and now the award will be made from the original base; many members on this site also feel the same concept applies to a missed base. However, it is not specifically stated in the rules or the manual for a missed base. I think the original question regarding the obstruction award was hinting towards this idea of the original base after the base running mistake is corrected.

I don’t think you finished your thought

So what..,.?

6.01(h)(1) states that the obstructed runner is awarded at least one base beyond the last base legally touched before the obstruction. Does the runner get home or second after correcting his missing of first base?

That is correct in the OBR AND NCAA. THE runner can legally return to touch first base. The original question asked refers to the award for obstruction, home or second, based on OBR 6.01(h)(1).

In USSSA SLOW PITCH, ball remains alive, and the runner is not out unless his act is intentional; if it’s an intentional act ,the ball is dead, the runner is out and runners remain where they are unless forced due to the batter being awarded first.

Good point Jim, replay does effect things in today’s game.

After there are three out, the only action that can take place is a fourth out appeal. No bases can be run (or missed), no runs can score,etc.

The timing of the events does indeed matter. The MLBUM clearly states that a runner cannot return to touch a missed base after the third out. He might physically do so, but if the defense makes a proper appeal, he becomes “the apparent fourth out”.

Clearly stated in MLBUM, no run scores.

OBR 5.08 has a general statement that says “….the runner is out when the umpire sustains the appeal…” maybe this helps in your quest to determine if it should be “time of miss or time of appeal”?

The statement from the Wendelstadt manual applies to a plays like the following : loaded bases one out, on a base clearing hit the runners from second and third score, the runner from first misses second before scoring. The batter runner is thrown out attempting a triple. (Now two out), The defense now appeals and the runner from first is called out for missing second base. At the time he missed the base he was in a force situation. No runs score. The batter Runner being thrown out behind the other runners does not remove the force. However, the Wendelstadt manual does not address situations where the following runner is retired on a force out (whether by natural action or appeal). Let it be noted that the last time the Wendelstadt manual seems to be printed was 2015. There are several items in it that are not accurate or contradict each other, and I don’t know how he uses the manual in his school if it’s not totally up-to-date. I am not the first person to make a comment regarding this. Wendelstadt does not address the most recent interpretation of order of appeals, which has been confirmed by an instructor in his school, Jim Evans, and the Marazzi play#3. All of these discussions have taken place on this site over the last year or two. If retiring a following runner (who was forced) BEFORE retiring the preceding runner (at his “forced” base), DOES NOT REMOVE THE FORCE on the preceding runner, then the “order of appeals” means nothing and the three references cited above are incorrect. I’ll take my chances with the three above before Wendelstadt.

Once again, the second paragraph above is the one that aligns with what Wendelstadt says in his manual. Everything else written above is found beyond his manual (i.e. Evans interpretation and the Marazzi #3) These two concepts are not really contradictory to each other.

Nothing has changed Wendelstadt ruling is fine for when the following runner is not put out on a force out because time of missed base then matters. However. the order of appeals makes it clear that the force is lost if the following runner is put out on a force out.

This picture (sorry I’m not a good cut and paste guy) is from the 2015 Wendelstadt rules Manual page 143.

I am honestly not trying to be coy here, but I am not certain what you mean or what you’re referring to. Maybe you can give an example?

I would like to correct an incorrect statement I made while all of this back-and-forth discussion took place several days ago. loaded bases,one out. Base hit, BR out on appeal for missing 2nd, then R2 out on appeal for missing 3rd, in this example, no run scores because by the time the appealed out took place at second, (not a force out) R2 obviously had already missed 3rd base (while still forced), so the third out on R2 is a force out, hence R3’s run does not count. This should clear up any confusion I caused by my response during the heated back-and-forth that took place. This ruling is now consistent with everything. I’ve set up to this point. Thank you.

When a following runner is retired (in any manner) prior to the preceding runner reaching (missing) the base he was originally forced to, the force is always removed on that runner.(meaning any appeal on the preceding runner would result in a time play when it results in the 3rd out) When a preceding runner misses the base he is forced to before a following runner is retired, any appeal on that preceding runner will result in a force out. AN EXCEPTION to the second paragraph above is the following: if a following runner is retired on a force out (whether it be before or after the preceding runner misses the base originally forced to) an appeal on that preceding runner is NOT A FORCE OUT, as is clearly illustrated in Rich Marazzi’s “inning ending and game ending plays #3”. Play #3 makes it crystal clear that appealing the following runner first, and then the preceding runner, causes the defense to “lose” the force and hence a run may legally score due to a resulting TIME PLAY. Once again, in play #3, the preceding runner missed the base he was forced to WAY BEFORE the runner behind him was retired on a force out, yet, as a result of appealing the following runner first , the force was removed on the preceding runner. So unless one does not accept Marazzi’s play #3, it must be concluded that the moment a preceding runner misses the base he was forced to is NOT a factor when a following runner is retired on a force out. NOTE: For purposes of discussion, the BR being retired at first base is “treated like a force out” (as mentioned earlier in this thread) even though it is not by definition a force out. NOTE: Inherent throughout the rulebook regarding when runners are retired is the understanding that appealed outs on runners many times yield the same results as natural action outs. For example: When the rulebook says no runs can score if the third out of an inning is recorded on the batter- runner before touching first base, it is understood that that means on a normal out recorded during continuous action (at first base), or on a subsequent appeal for the batter -runner missing first base. Both types of outs will negate any run scoring if it is, indeed, the third out of the inning. Hope this clarifies this discussion for those that are interested

You wete lost the first time you read something that didn’t fit in with your coaching mentality

Ok whatever you say, you know best goodbye

In your last play BR at 2nd is not a force so no-run scores because R2 is out on a force because he was in a force situation when he missed 3rd base

In your very last example, one run scores (makes perfect sense). R3 scores. I don’t know what makes sense to you anymore.

In your play R2 can certainly return to second base because he was no longer forced when R1 was tagged out, your play has nothing to do with an appeal. No bases were missed, etc..??